The unpardonable sin and TULIP

[armylngst]

Jesus said that attributing works of the Holy Spirit to Beelzebub is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. That is what I posted.

While ignoring the context. You are not Jesus, and there is no absolute proof that you are acting in the power of the Holy Spirit. With Jesus, in the context of the event, even the people had no doubts. The questions they asked were basically, is Jesus the Messiah, or the actual question, is Jesus the son of David. They gave glory to God, because they knew the power and the act of God when they saw it. The religious leaders also knew, but, due to the hardness of their hearts, and their desire to deny Christ, they claimed that it was through the power of beezelbub that Jesus cast out the demon. They knew it was God. They knew it was the Holy Spirit. They denied it, and not only that, attributed it to Satan. That was the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Jesus told the religious leaders that they would not be damned without hope for saying things about the Father, or even in this instance, the Son (Jesus Himself), however, they went to far in blaspheming the Holy Spirit. You cannot claim this for yourself, unless you are Jesus. Are you Jesus? Are you the one we are waiting for?

22Then a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute was brought to Jesus, and He healed the man so that he could speak and see. 23The crowds were astounded and asked, “Could this be the Son of David?”

24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “Only by Beelzebul,d the prince of demons, does this man drive out demons.”

25Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be laid waste, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

29Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and steal his possessions, unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.

30He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters.

31Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the one to come.

So basically Jesus had no problem forgiving the religious leaders for what they said about Him. But the religious leaders didn't stop their and moved on to blaspheming the Holy Spirit, which Jesus tells them will never be forgiven.

An idle thought, a mistake, a misunderstanding, parroting someone else's opinion, etc. are not what is meant by blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. What is meant is seeing what is clearly of the Holy Spirit and, with a wicked, hard-hearted unbelief, attributing it to the devil.

You don't get to define it. Pastor's do a good job of counseling those who ask questions in devastating fear of damnation without hope, and they say that this sin can't be committed today, because Jesus is not here. There is a reason why Jesus starts with saying that whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man first, and says, well that can be forgiven, however, they didn't stop their, and moved on to blaspheming the Holy Spirit which empowered Jesus. We have not claim to that, so don't rip verses out of context.

 

[David1701]

While ignoring the context. You are not Jesus, and there is no absolute proof that you are acting in the power of the Holy Spirit.

I did not mention myself at all. This discussion is not about me!

With Jesus, in the context of the event, even the people had no doubts. The questions they asked were basically, is Jesus the Messiah, or the actual question, is Jesus the son of David. They gave glory to God, because they knew the power and the act of God when they saw it. The religious leaders also knew, but, due to the hardness of their hearts, and their desire to deny Christ, they claimed that it was through the power of beezelbub that Jesus cast out the demon. They knew it was God. They knew it was the Holy Spirit. They denied it, and not only that, attributed it to Satan. That was the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Jesus told the religious leaders that they would not be damned without hope for saying things about the Father, or even in this instance, the Son (Jesus Himself), however, they went to far in blaspheming the Holy Spirit. You cannot claim this for yourself, unless you are Jesus. Are you Jesus? Are you the one we are waiting for?

22Then a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute was brought to Jesus, and He healed the man so that he could speak and see. 23The crowds were astounded and asked, “Could this be the Son of David?”

24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “Only by Beelzebul,d the prince of demons, does this man drive out demons.”

25Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be laid waste, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

29Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and steal his possessions, unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.

30He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters.

31Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the one to come.

So basically Jesus had no problem forgiving the religious leaders for what they said about Him. But the religious leaders didn't stop their and moved on to blaspheming the Holy Spirit, which Jesus tells them will never be forgiven.

You don't get to define it. Pastor's do a good job of counseling those who ask questions in devastating fear of damnation without hope, and they say that this sin can't be committed today, because Jesus is not here. There is a reason why Jesus starts with saying that whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man first, and says, well that can be forgiven, however, they didn't stop their, and moved on to blaspheming the Holy Spirit which empowered Jesus. We have not claim to that, so don't rip verses out of context.

Any pastor who says that this sin (blasphemy against the Holy Spirit) cannot be committed today, is teaching lies. It is nothing to do with whether or not Jesus is here in the flesh. It is to do with speaking against the Holy Spirit, in hard-hearted unbelief, attributing works that are clearly His, to the devil. Of course this can be committed nowadays.

Here's an example: a friend of mine knew personally a member of the Plymouth Brethren, who got cancer. The cancer was untreatable. He was desperate, so, even though his denomination is Cessationist (they don't admit to being a denomination, but they are) he went to a Pentecostal meeting, where he received the laying on of hands, from elders, and prayer for healing (James 5:14,15). He felt something happen in his body and went to the doctor. Tests were done and he was found to be completely free from cancer - praise the Lord! He knew that the Holy Spirit had done this and testified so to people he knew, praising God for his healing.

Some days later, elders from his Brethren meeting came to see him. They told him to repent and confess that his healing was from the devil, because they teach that the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased. He told them exactly what happened and that he knew beyond doubt that it was the Holy Spirit who had healed him, but they kept insisting that it was the devil, so he told them to leave. They excommunicated him and have not changed their stance since then.

I wasn't there, so I can't be completely certain; but, this sounds very much like blasphemy against the Holy Spirit to me.

 

[guest1]

It is seeing Jesus performing miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit, and claiming that this Holy Spirit by whom Jesus is performing miracles, is Beezelbub. And yes, it is true that this sin, as recorded cannot be committed today. However, there are those who say that to die in one's sin, after seeing the testimony of the Holy Spirit, is akin to the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, because the denial of His work is akin to saying the Holy Spirit is evil, I will not accept. So, those who die in their sins, can never be forgiven, because they have, in essence, committed the unpardonable sin.

Yes the sin cannot be committed today .

 

[armylngst]

Yes the sin cannot be committed today .

However, if it did exist today, it is best seen as one dying in their sins, since no one who dies in their sins will see heaven. That is the closest example of the possible existence of the sin today that we can get.

 

[armylngst]

I did not mention myself at all. This discussion is not about me!

You don't have to mention yourself, when it is understood.

Any pastor who says that this sin (blasphemy against the Holy Spirit) cannot be committed today, is teaching lies. It is nothing to do with whether or not Jesus is here in the flesh. It is to do with speaking against the Holy Spirit, in hard-hearted unbelief, attributing works that are clearly His, to the devil. Of course this can be committed nowadays.

There are a lot of pastors who would disagree. It has everything to do with Jesus. Why do you seek to defame Him? The religious leaders did not speak directly of the Holy Spirit, as it was Jesus who told them that what they were saying was actually against the Holy Spirit and not Jesus. They were seeking to attack Jesus. They did not say that the Holy Spirit was the devil. What they said was that the power by which Jesus cast out demons (see, directed against Jesus) was the power of beezelbub. They did not know/understand that it was the Holy Spirit, and that they were blaspheming the Holy Spirit. They were trying to say that Jesus was in alliance with Beezelbub. Jesus explained that anyone with half a brain would know that this was not so, because Satan would never attack himself and destroy his own kingdom. Why did Jesus bring this up before even mentioning the sin? Because this was a special situation. Even the people recognized the work of God in that Jesus was casting out demons. Jesus then told them that He was casting out demons by the Holy Spirit (implicitly), and that they had blasphemed the Holy Spirit by attributing this clear work of God, with which if the religious leaders were correct, then Satan was destroying himself, to Satan, and not to the Holy Spirit, to whom the praise belonged.

Here's an example: a friend of mine knew personally a member of the Plymouth Brethren, who got cancer. The cancer was untreatable. He was desperate, so, even though his denomination is Cessationist (they don't admit to being a denomination, but they are) he went to a Pentecostal meeting, where he received the laying on of hands, from elders, and prayer for healing (James 5:14,15). He felt something happen in his body and went to the doctor. Tests were done and he was found to be completely free from cancer - praise the Lord! He knew that the Holy Spirit had done this and testified so to people he knew, praising God for his healing.

If you think that cessationist is a denomination, then you obviously have no idea what it is.

First of all, there is no proof that this ever happened. Second of all, I also know people who have pleaded with their elders on this passage in James 5, and the passage is clear that if this is followed they WILL, not might, be healed. In most cases, (all cases?), people are not healed. What does that tell us? The passage is dealing with something else. How can we know? The passage states clearly that they WILL be healed, every time. Since this does not happen every time, and God is clear in passages that when He says every time, He means every time, then it has to be talking about something else.

This is not Jesus (or anyone else) casting out demons. This is, as you tell us, a healing. It is totally possible for Satan, the one who disguises himself as an angel of light, to counterfeit this to the detriment of one who may not be a believer. This is no Satan attacking Satan involved. One cannot just claim that this is the Holy Spirit, without considering the possibility of a demonic deception to trip up/deceive believers and the church. Could it be God? It could be. Could it be something else? It could be. Using stories that this, supposedly there was a young child who eradicated his cancer using a Darth Vader action figure. How did this happen. I believe the final answer was that by repeating in his mind, and believing it, his own body eradicated the cancer.

Some days later, elders from his Brethren meeting came to see him. They told him to repent and confess that his healing was from the devil, because they teach that the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased. He told them exactly what happened and that he knew beyond doubt that it was the Holy Spirit who had healed him, but they kept insisting that it was the devil, so he told them to leave. They excommunicated him and have not changed their stance since then.

There is no way to know this beyond a shadow of a doubt. They may have gone too far, but they were not wrong to not blindly accept it. There are a lot of people who have lied about experiences, to cover up what actually happened, for many different reasons. So this goes back to, there is no proof that this happened. We also don't know what other information the Plymouth Bretheren church may have had about the situation that you don't even have.

I wasn't there, so I can't be completely certain; but, this sounds very much like blasphemy against the Holy Spirit to me.

It doesn't matter what you think. You need to read the situation surrounding Jesus presenting this sin, and understand that it is not something that can happen today.

 

[David1701]

You don't have to mention yourself, when it is understood.

You mean "misunderstood", since, as I said, I was not referring to myself. You assumed, incorrectly.

There are a lot of pastors who would disagree. It has everything to do with Jesus. Why do you seek to defame Him?

Now you are just resorting to crass insults. You know very well that I am not seeking to "defame" the Lord. When you feel that you have to stoop to this kind of tactic, it shows a heart that would be better kept out of sight (or, better still, repented of).

The religious leaders did not speak directly of the Holy Spirit, as it was Jesus who told them that what they were saying was actually against the Holy Spirit and not Jesus. They were seeking to attack Jesus. They did not say that the Holy Spirit was the devil. What they said was that the power by which Jesus cast out demons (see, directed against Jesus) was the power of beezelbub. They did not know/understand that it was the Holy Spirit, and that they were blaspheming the Holy Spirit. They were trying to say that Jesus was in alliance with Beezelbub. Jesus explained that anyone with half a brain would know that this was not so, because Satan would never attack himself and destroy his own kingdom. Why did Jesus bring this up before even mentioning the sin? Because this was a special situation. Even the people recognized the work of God in that Jesus was casting out demons. Jesus then told them that He was casting out demons by the Holy Spirit (implicitly), and that they had blasphemed the Holy Spirit by attributing this clear work of God, with which if the religious leaders were correct, then Satan was destroying himself, to Satan, and not to the Holy Spirit, to whom the praise belonged.

I'm unsure why you felt the need to post this, since it agrees with what I posted.

If you think that cessationist is a denomination, then you obviously have no idea what it is.

LOL! It didn't even cross my mind that someone would think that Cessationist was a denomination. If you think I meant that, then perhaps some basic English lessons are in order.

I specifically said that the denomination was "Plymouth Brethren", and even that was a concession to American readers, since, in Britain, we normally just call them "The Brethren" (Open or Closed varieties) and it's a British denomination, originally.

First of all, there is no proof that this ever happened. Second of all, I also know people who have pleaded with their elders on this passage in James 5, and the passage is clear that if this is followed they WILL, not might, be healed. In most cases, (all cases?), people are not healed. What does that tell us? The passage is dealing with something else. How can we know? The passage states clearly that they WILL be healed, every time. Since this does not happen every time, and God is clear in passages that when He says every time, He means every time, then it has to be talking about something else.

The prayer of faith is effectual; but, if they don't pray in faith, then no positive result should be expected. I had a friend who went to the deacons of the Baptist meeting that we attended (they don't have elders, for some reason), asking them to pray according to the James passage. They prayed, but reluctantly, and the lack of faith was almost palpable. Nothing happened.

This is not Jesus (or anyone else) casting out demons. This is, as you tell us, a healing. It is totally possible for Satan, the one who disguises himself as an angel of light, to counterfeit this to the detriment of one who may not be a believer. This is no Satan attacking Satan involved. One cannot just claim that this is the Holy Spirit, without considering the possibility of a demonic deception to trip up/deceive believers and the church. Could it be God? It could be. Could it be something else? It could be. Using stories that this, supposedly there was a young child who eradicated his cancer using a Darth Vader action figure. How did this happen. I believe the final answer was that by repeating in his mind, and believing it, his own body eradicated the cancer.

This healing came from godly Christians, praying according to the word of God, for another Christian, out of compassion. They prayed in Jesus name and the man who was healed gave all the glory to God for his healing, in spite of the teaching of his denomination. For anyone to say that this was a satanic counterfeit, the cynic would have to have extremely strong evidence, or be in danger of speaking against a work of God, and the God of the work.

There is no way to know this beyond a shadow of a doubt. They may have gone too far, but they were not wrong to not blindly accept it. There are a lot of people who have lied about experiences, to cover up what actually happened, for many different reasons. So this goes back to, there is no proof that this happened. We also don't know what other information the Plymouth Bretheren church may have had about the situation that you don't even have.

They knew nothing except their doctrines and what the healed man (a member of the Brethren meeting) told them. He, on the other hand, had the experience of the godly prayer and the medically attested results. He was also giving glory to God and praising him for the healing.

These Brethren elders did not merely have some doubts, they were insisting, repeatedly, that it was definitely a work of the devil and that the healed man had to renounce his healing, as being from Satan.

It doesn't matter what you think. You need to read the situation surrounding Jesus presenting this sin, and understand that it is not something that can happen today.

It doesn't matter what you think. You can blaspheme the Holy Spirit just as easily now as you could then. There is zero evidence that no-one can speak injuriously against the Holy Spirit; in fact, such a claim is ridiculous on its face.

 

[armylngst]

You mean "misunderstood", since, as I said, I was not referring to myself. You assumed, incorrectly.



Now you are just resorting to crass insults. You know very well that I am not seeking to "defame" the Lord. When you feel that you have to stoop to this kind of tactic, it shows a heart that would be better kept out of sight (or, better still, repented of).


I'm unsure why you felt the need to post this, since it agrees with what I posted.


LOL! It didn't even cross my mind that someone would think that Cessationist was a denomination. If you think I meant that, then perhaps some basic English lessons are in order.

I specifically said that the denomination was "Plymouth Brethren", and even that was a concession to American readers, since, in Britain, we normally just call them "The Brethren" (Open or Closed varieties) and it's a British denomination, originally.


The prayer of faith is effectual; but, if they don't pray in faith, then no positive result should be expected. I had a friend who went to the deacons of the Baptist meeting that we attended (they don't have elders, for some reason), asking them to pray according to the James passage. They prayed, but reluctantly, and the lack of faith was almost palpable. Nothing happened.


This healing came from godly Christians, praying according to the word of God, for another Christian, out of compassion. They prayed in Jesus name and the man who was healed gave all the glory to God for his healing, in spite of the teaching of his denomination. For anyone to say that this was a satanic counterfeit, the cynic would have to have extremely strong evidence, or be in danger of speaking against a work of God, and the God of the work.


They knew nothing except their doctrines and what the healed man (a member of the Brethren meeting) told them. He, on the other hand, had the experience of the godly prayer and the medically attested results. He was also giving glory to God and praising him for the healing.

These Brethren elders did not merely have some doubts, they were insisting, repeatedly, that it was definitely a work of the devil and that the healed man had to renounce his healing, as being from Satan.


It doesn't matter what you think. You can blaspheme the Holy Spirit just as easily now as you could then. There is zero evidence that no-one can speak injuriously against the Holy Spirit; in fact, such a claim is ridiculous on its face.

This is where you are ignorant. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is not simply speaking injuriously against the Holy Spirit, which is what we have been saying. We put the passage where Jesus introduces this sin, and it was not simply the religious leaders speaking injuriously against the Holy Spirit. Jesus acted in the power of the Holy Spirit, and the religious leaders spoke to that. Jesus showed the absolute foolishness of what they said by showing that it is blatantly obvious that what the religious leaders were saying are impossible. They were trying to picture Jesus as an agent of Beezelbub, to which Jesus said that any sin against the Son can be forgiven. However, what they said went right passed their target, Jesus, and hit the Holy Spirit head on. To this Jesus said that the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit would never be forgiven. Once again, the main point is that Jesus performed an exorcism, to which it was so clear it was God that the people were praising God for what Jesus did. However, the religious leaders were so set on destroying Jesus, that they blasphemed the Holy Spirit. This situation is not something that can happen today, as Jesus is not here anymore, having ascended after He fulfilled the Father's will.

Also, you have not provided even the slimmest proof that anything you said actually happened. If this is medically attested, you should be able to provide absolute proof (medically attested) that he had cancer up to the moment he was prayed for, and absolute proof (medically attested) that his cancer was gone from that moment.

 

[David1701]

This is where you are ignorant. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is not simply speaking injuriously against the Holy Spirit, which is what we have been saying. We put the passage where Jesus introduces this sin, and it was not simply the religious leaders speaking injuriously against the Holy Spirit. Jesus acted in the power of the Holy Spirit, and the religious leaders spoke to that. Jesus showed the absolute foolishness of what they said by showing that it is blatantly obvious that what the religious leaders were saying are impossible. They were trying to picture Jesus as an agent of Beezelbub, to which Jesus said that any sin against the Son can be forgiven. However, what they said went right passed their target, Jesus, and hit the Holy Spirit head on. To this Jesus said that the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit would never be forgiven. Once again, the main point is that Jesus performed an exorcism, to which it was so clear it was God that the people were praising God for what Jesus did. However, the religious leaders were so set on destroying Jesus, that they blasphemed the Holy Spirit. This situation is not something that can happen today, as Jesus is not here anymore, having ascended after He fulfilled the Father's will.

Also, you have not provided even the slimmest proof that anything you said actually happened. If this is medically attested, you should be able to provide absolute proof (medically attested) that he had cancer up to the moment he was prayed for, and absolute proof (medically attested) that his cancer was gone from that moment.

The Pharisees speaking against the power by which Jesus drove out evil spirits, was an example of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, not a definition of it!

 

[armylngst]

The Pharisees speaking against the power by which Jesus drove out evil spirits, was an example of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, not a definition of it!

Really? So where in scripture was it defined prior to Christ? I mean, in order for it to be an example, it has to be defined FIRST. Or is Jesus not qualified to define it? I mean, what do you have against Jesus? You seem to have a bone to pick with Him. Not good enough to give a definition?