The use of the Greek article

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
I use different verbiage at different times, but essentially, τὸν θέον in John 1:1 is God without reference to the later developed concept of "person," i.e., not the Father per se, but God as we see him revealed in the OT. The distinction between the Father and the Son is particularly a NT revelation, and John develops that distinction nicely in his Gospel.

If you mean distinction between Father and Son in the Trinity, that happens centuries later.

Father and sons are distinguished as different persons in Genesis.
 

Gryllus Maior

Active member
If you mean distinction between Father and Son in the Trinity, that happens centuries later.

Father and sons are distinguished as different persons in Genesis.
I'm not referring to the Trinity, but specifically to God as "the Father" in the NT, which we see quite a bit, but rarely in the OT (and normally with regard to Israel). In fact, my reading of John 1:1 specifically assumes that John is not making later Nicene distinctions, but that a number of NT scholars have assumed or imported those distinctions into the text at this point.

That doesn't mean that the distinctions aren't valid, simply that John doesn't have them in mind. And that's all I have to say on theology here!
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
I'm not referring to the Trinity, but specifically to God as "the Father" in the NT, which we see quite a bit, but rarely in the OT (and normally with regard to Israel). In fact, my reading of John 1:1 specifically assumes that John is not making later Nicene distinctions, but that a number of NT scholars have assumed or imported those distinctions into the text at this point.

That doesn't mean that the distinctions aren't valid, simply that John doesn't have them in mind. And that's all I have to say on theology here!

Got it. So while the singular τον θεον is as much an individual as ο λόγος, being in company with him, you don't define him as the Father in John 1:1.

Still if we take John as a whole, looking back at 1:1, we can identify him as such on our "second" reading of the book.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
I'm not referring to the Trinity, but specifically to God as "the Father" in the NT, which we see quite a bit, but rarely in the OT (and normally with regard to Israel). In fact, my reading of John 1:1 specifically assumes that John is not making later Nicene distinctions, but that a number of NT scholars have assumed or imported those distinctions into the text at this point.

That doesn't mean that the distinctions aren't valid, simply that John doesn't have them in mind. And that's all I have to say on theology here!

To equate ὁ θεός with the Father is hardly to make a "Nicene distinction."
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
Got it. So while the singular τον θεον is as much an individual as ο λόγος, being in company with him, you don't define him as the Father in John 1:1.

Still if we take John as a whole, looking back at 1:1, we can identify him as such on our "second" reading of the book.

And that is disturbing in light of 1 John 1:1 --- ἥτις ἦν πρὸς τὸν πατέρα
 
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