The Value of Evangelism in Reform Theology

brightfame52

Well-known member
He died for all, the world, every man

John 6:51 (KJV 1900)
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

2 Corinthians 5:14–15 (KJV 1900)
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Hebrews 2:9 (KJV 1900)
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
He died for every Sheep!
 

TomFL

Well-known member
He died for every Sheep!
World is a broader term than sheep

Every man is a broader term than sheep

Heb. 2:9 —KJV
“But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.”
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
World is a broader term than sheep

Every man is a broader term than sheep

Heb. 2:9 —KJV
“But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.”
Don't understand. Christ died for the Sheep and rose again the Shepherd of the Sheep Heb 13:20

Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

See same book. That's letting us know who He tasted death for in Heb 2:9 the Sheep
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
World is a broader term than sheep

Every man is a broader term than sheep

Heb. 2:9 —KJV
“But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.”

Heb. 2:8 ... Yet at present we do not see everything subject to them. 9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
10 In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered.


First of all, "we" refers to a particular group.
Secondly, "many" does NOT mean "everyone".

Finally, the Greek term rendered here as "everyone" does not have the sense of "every single person", but is simply "pantos", which means "each", referring to the group "we".
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Heb. 2:8 ... Yet at present we do not see everything subject to them. 9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
10 In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered.


First of all, "we" refers to a particular group.
Secondly, "many" does NOT mean "everyone".

Finally, the Greek term rendered here as "everyone" does not have the sense of "every single person", but is simply "pantos", which means "each", referring to the group "we".
The We just defines who is doing the seeing

It does nothing at all to limit those who Christ died for and your appeal to it is without relevance to the issue


Second there is nothing in the many that limits the all

Christ died for all

There were many sons as not all Christ died for had faith and received the blessing

In any case the discussion concerns men

Heb. 2:6–7 —KJV
“But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:”


all is a natural modifier of man

which is why many translations read all men
 

JDS

Active member
1 Pet. 5:1–4 —KJV
Ҧ The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a part
1 Pet. 2:9–10 —KJV
“But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”

That refers to gentiles
Let me just deal with this part of your post for now. First of all when God says in a letter to a group of people that they are a chosen generation, he actually means something by the words. What does the word generation in this letter written to the strangers in these five different locations mean. The question you must ask yourself is do I believe he actually means the generation of the people in that day when the letter was written is who he has in mind as my first application? How you answer that question will determine if you will be able to advance your knowledge of God and his ways. What does he mean by chosen? What about a royal priesthood? A peculiar people, and a holy nation? A holy nation? Is it possible for you to consider these strangers scattered over this region of the world as a nation, much less a holy nation.

Well, I want you to know that I believe every word of it. I don’t know what you believe.

Now, the key to understanding this is in verse 10. I am going to copy and paste it here so we can look at what it says.

Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”

Have you seen this message before in the scriptures? It is speaking about time past when they were not a people. However, now they are the people of God. Something happened to change the status of these people. What was it ? Who are these people? Well, before, in time past, God said they had not obtained mercy, but now they have obtained mercy. This news makes me curious.

I read about them in Romans chapter 9. Let me quote that to you.

Romans 9:22-26
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

What was the reason God gave in the passage you quoted to me in 1 Peter for showing mercy now. Look at what he says there and compare it to verse 23 above.

1 Peter 2:12
Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

It is for the glory of God.

So, in verse 25 of Romans 9 he is drawing from a prophecy from Hosea chapter 1 concerning the northern 10 tribes who are a nation and the people of God when Hosea delivered his prophecy to them. But, before I do, I am going to prove the both nations, Judah and Israel are in view and in the exact same time frame. Notice when and to whom Isaiah delivered his prophecy.

Isaiah 1:1
The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

Now notice when and to whom Hosea delivered his prophecy.

Hosea 1:1
The word of the LORD that came unto Hosea, the son of Beeri, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel.

Now notice what Hosea says about this nation called Israel. Because of length of post I will not quote the whole chapter but you should read it.

Hosea 1:5-11
5 And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel.
6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.
7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.
8 Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.
9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

The prophecy of verse 10 came to pass because Jesus died for Israel and through him God had mercy on them and when they believed the preaching of his apostles they were born again and became “children of the living God” just as Hosea said.

Judah had national identity during the days of the apostles, but Israel did not. The plan of God is still to fulfill that last verse, verse 11, in the near future.

Maybe this will help the reader see that it is wise to believe every word of God because he can say what he means better than we can.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”

Have you seen this message before in the scriptures? It is speaking about time past when they were not a people. However, now they are the people of God. Something happened to change the status of these people. What was it ? Who are these people? Well, before, in time past, God said they had not obtained mercy, but now they have obtained mercy. This news makes me curious.

I read about them in Romans chapter 9. Let me quote that to you.

Romans 9:22-26
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

The key part is

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

So the gentiles are now the people of, the children of God


What was the reason God gave in the passage you quoted to me in 1 Peter for showing mercy now. Look at what he says there and compare it to verse 23 above.

1 Peter 2:12
Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

It is for the glory of God.

So, in verse 25 of Romans 9 he is drawing from a prophecy from Hosea chapter 1 concerning the northern 10 tribes who are a nation and the people of God when Hosea delivered his prophecy to them. But, before I do, I am going to prove the both nations, Judah and Israel are in view and in the exact same time frame. Notice when and to whom Isaiah delivered his prophecy.
What part of gentiles did you miss

but also of the Gentiles?

Eph. 2:11 —ESV
“¶ Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands—”

Eph. 2:12–19 —ESV
“remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility
by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,
and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.
And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near.
For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.
So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,”
 

civic

Well-known member
Let me just deal with this part of your post for now. First of all when God says in a letter to a group of people that they are a chosen generation, he actually means something by the words. What does the word generation in this letter written to the strangers in these five different locations mean. The question you must ask yourself is do I believe he actually means the generation of the people in that day when the letter was written is who he has in mind as my first application? How you answer that question will determine if you will be able to advance your knowledge of God and his ways. What does he mean by chosen? What about a royal priesthood? A peculiar people, and a holy nation? A holy nation? Is it possible for you to consider these strangers scattered over this region of the world as a nation, much less a holy nation.

Well, I want you to know that I believe every word of it. I don’t know what you believe.

Now, the key to understanding this is in verse 10. I am going to copy and paste it here so we can look at what it says.

Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”

Have you seen this message before in the scriptures? It is speaking about time past when they were not a people. However, now they are the people of God. Something happened to change the status of these people. What was it ? Who are these people? Well, before, in time past, God said they had not obtained mercy, but now they have obtained mercy. This news makes me curious.

I read about them in Romans chapter 9. Let me quote that to you.

Romans 9:22-26
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

What was the reason God gave in the passage you quoted to me in 1 Peter for showing mercy now. Look at what he says there and compare it to verse 23 above.

1 Peter 2:12
Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

It is for the glory of God.

So, in verse 25 of Romans 9 he is drawing from a prophecy from Hosea chapter 1 concerning the northern 10 tribes who are a nation and the people of God when Hosea delivered his prophecy to them. But, before I do, I am going to prove the both nations, Judah and Israel are in view and in the exact same time frame. Notice when and to whom Isaiah delivered his prophecy.

Isaiah 1:1
The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

Now notice when and to whom Hosea delivered his prophecy.

Hosea 1:1
The word of the LORD that came unto Hosea, the son of Beeri, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel.

Now notice what Hosea says about this nation called Israel. Because of length of post I will not quote the whole chapter but you should read it.

Hosea 1:5-11
5 And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel.
6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.
7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.
8 Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.
9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

The prophecy of verse 10 came to pass because Jesus died for Israel and through him God had mercy on them and when they believed the preaching of his apostles they were born again and became “children of the living God” just as Hosea said.

Judah had national identity during the days of the apostles, but Israel did not. The plan of God is still to fulfill that last verse, verse 11, in the near future.

Maybe this will help the reader see that it is wise to believe every word of God because he can say what he means better than we can.
Yes you should believe every word of God. His sacrifice for sin was for all people both Jews and Gentiles.

Nothing is more common in Jewish writings than to call the Gentiles "the world"; and , "the whole world"; and , "the nations of the world" gill

1 John 2:2
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

hope this helps !!!
 

civic

Well-known member
The key part is

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

So the gentiles are now the people of, the children of God



What part of gentiles did you miss

but also of the Gentiles?

Eph. 2:11 —ESV
“¶ Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands—”

Eph. 2:12–19 —ESV
“remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility
by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,
and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.
And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near.
For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.
So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,”
I wouldn't be surprised to find out he is a British Israelite/ Anglo-Israelism. He rationalizes the Jews/Israel and gentiles just like them.
 

JDS

Active member
The key part is

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

So the gentiles are now the people of, the children of God
Your argument is not only an error but it is illogical, unreasonable, and it does not take into account the 39 books of the Old Testament and the prophecies that are contained therein where covenant promises were made to a particular people that God has continually said were his people. What I am getting from your arguments is a justification for your propensity to not believe what words actually declare and to whom they declare them.

If you have a prophecy that is being set forth as being fulfilled in a particular people group at the present time, one that was made 700 years previously and you turn to the prophecy and read it, you should be able to identify who the people group is to whom the prophecy is given. I turned to the passage in Hosea and found out God was making this prophecy to the norther kingdom of Israel, (which consisted of the ten tribes), through the prophet Hosea. Who God has mercy on and whom he doesn't he says is his business in Romans 9. He said in Hosea he would have mercy on Judah, the southern two tribes, and he did not have mercy on Israel. The Assyrians came into the land and dispersed them off the land. However, the prophecy did not say he would never have mercy on them ever but that one day he would have mercy on them, not as a nation first, but as "sons" of God. This is the point of Romans 9. Jesus Christ made it possible to be born again into the family of God. Judah, the nation, the people of God, the one of the two he had mercy on, the one to whom Jesus came, the one who were first to receive the Spirit and be born again. Then after that, the gentiles. which brings us to the reason God lumped them in with gentiles. It is because he had designated them as "not my people" and had cast them out of the land into the lands of the gentiles. These people were under the authority of gentiles for these 700 years and the covenant promises are not in effect when Israel is out of her land. They are as gentiles and God through the gospel of Christ has mercy on the whole world. That would include Israel and so we see God sending his Jewish preachers there to tell them about this wonderful gospel of Christ.

Hosea 1:11, where both these nations, Judah and Israel, are said to become one nation again has not happened yet and there has now been 2000 years between verses 10 and 11. It will happen one day soon. I have read the whole book of Hosea. I know what it says about Israel in the future. Thankfully, some of these people over the last two thousand years have become sons of God through the new birth and are in the church of God. There is an Israel and there are nations after the church of Jesus Christ is fully formed and that seems to be something you do not understand or a fact that you reject.

God had promised both spiritual and physical blessings in his covenants to Israel in the OT. The physical blessings depended on them receiving the spiritual blessings first, by faith. This truth is witnessed here in a statement to a ruler of Israel in Jn 3 where Jesus says to him.

"except a man is born again he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." That is the spiritual and the physical. Obviously for Israel, the physical kingdom did not appear because they would not receive salvation through Christ, Because of their failure, only the spiritual blessings of the New Covenant was given to "the remnant," those few who believed in Christ , and because the rest were cut off from the roots, the gentiles were grafted in but we only receive the spiritual blessings. That is clearly stated in Rom 11 and Rom 15. You may see it here.

Rom 15:15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,
16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,
19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation:
21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.
22 For which cause also I have been much hindered from coming to you.
23 But now having no more place in these parts, and having a great desire these many years to come unto you;
24 Whensoever I take my journey into Spain, I will come to you: for I trust to see you in my journey, and to be brought on my way thitherward by you, if first I be somewhat filled with your company.
25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

28 When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain.

When Paul speaks of "saints" he is usually speaking of Jewish believers as opposed to gentile believers. The spiritual things are the gift of the Spirit of God, the new birth, and the forgiveness of sins in the name of Jesus Christ our saviour.

I will deal with Eph 2:10-11 in another post.
 
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JDS

Active member
I wouldn't be surprised to find out he is a British Israelite/ Anglo-Israelism. He rationalizes the Jews/Israel and gentiles just like them.
Lol, you do not have a basis for your Calvinism and ad hominins is the only response to someone who actually believes the words that are written in the texts of scriptures and attempts to defend them against the onslaught of a false religious system that has everything exactly backwards and proponents of it who calls themselves elect from eternity past without a single thread of evidence for it.

Your religion does not require the words of scripture. You make them up as you go.

Total depravity
irresistible grace
sovereign election
sovereign grace
unconditional election
limited atonement
determinism
faith accessed through grace
original sin

Good grief, that is just a few made up doctrines.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Your argument is not only an error but it is illogical, unreasonable, and it does not take into account the 39 books of the Old Testament and the prophecies that are contained therein where covenant promises were made to a particular people that God has continually said were his people. What I am getting from your arguments is a justification for your propensity to not believe what words actually declare and to whom they declare them.

If you have a prophecy that is being set forth as being fulfilled in a particular people group at the present time, one that was made 700 years previously and you turn to the prophecy and read it, you should be able to identify who the people group is to whom the prophecy is given. I turned to the passage in Hosea and found out God was making this prophecy to the norther kingdom of Israel, (which consisted of the ten tribes), through the prophet Hosea. Who God has mercy on and whom he doesn't he says is his business in Romans 9. He said in Hosea he would have mercy on Judah, the southern two tribes, and he did not have mercy on Israel. The Assyrians came into the land and dispersed them off the land. However, the prophecy did not say he would never have mercy on them ever but that one day he would have mercy on them, not as a nation first, but as "sons" of God. This is the point of Romans 9. Jesus Christ made it possible to be born again into the family of God. Judah, the nation, the people of God, the one of the two he had mercy on, the one to whom Jesus came, the one who were first to receive the Spirit and be born again. Then after that, the gentiles. which brings us to the reason God lumped them in with gentiles. It is because he had designated them as "not my people" and had cast them out of the land into the lands of the gentiles. These people were under the authority of gentiles for these 700 years and the covenant promises are not in effect when Israel is out of her land. They are as gentiles and God through the gospel of Christ has mercy on the whole world. That would include Israel and so we see God sending his Jewish preachers there to tell them about this wonderful gospel of Christ.

Hosea 1:11, where both these nations, Judah and Israel, are said to become one nation again has not happened yet and there has now been 2000 years between verses 10 and 11. It will happen one day soon. I have read the whole book of Hosea. I know what it says about Israel in the future. Thankfully, some of these people over the last two thousand years have become sons of God through the new birth and are in the church of God. There is an Israel and there are nations after the church of Jesus Christ is fully formed and that seems to be something you do not understand or a fact that you reject.

God had promised both spiritual and physical blessings in his covenants to Israel in the OT. The physical blessings depended on them receiving the spiritual blessings first, by faith. This truth is witnessed here in a statement to a ruler of Israel in Jn 3 where Jesus says to him.

"except a man is born again he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." That is the spiritual and the physical. Obviously for Israel, the physical kingdom did not appear because they would not receive salvation through Christ, Because of their failure, only the spiritual blessings of the New Covenant was given to "the remnant," those few who believed in Christ , and because the rest were cut off from the roots, the gentiles were grafted in but we only receive the spiritual blessings. That is clearly stated in Rom 11 and Rom 15. You may see it here.

Rom 15:15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,
16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,
19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation:
21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.
22 For which cause also I have been much hindered from coming to you.
23 But now having no more place in these parts, and having a great desire these many years to come unto you;
24 Whensoever I take my journey into Spain, I will come to you: for I trust to see you in my journey, and to be brought on my way thitherward by you, if first I be somewhat filled with your company.
25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

28 When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain.

When Paul speaks of "saints" he is usually speaking of Jewish believers as opposed to gentile believers. The spiritual things are the gift of the Spirit of God, the new birth, and the forgiveness of sins in the name of Jesus Christ our saviour.

I will deal with Eph 2:10-11 in another post.
It's real simple

Eph. 2:11–21 —ESV
“¶ Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands—
remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility
by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,
and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.
And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near.
For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.
So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,
in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord.”

The New testament shows one peoples of God united - Both Jew and Gentile under the chief shepherd.

You can read all the old testament prophesies you want but they cannot disprove there is one body in the New Covenant

so if your interpretation of the prophesies causes you to think otherwise your interpretations are an error

It's that simple
 

JDS

Active member
It's real simple

Eph. 2:11–21 —ESV
“¶ Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands—
remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility
by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,
and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.
And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near.
For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.
So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,
in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord.”

The New testament shows one peoples of God united - Both Jew and Gentile under the chief shepherd.

You can read all the old testament prophesies you want but they cannot disprove there is one body in the New Covenant

so if your interpretation of the prophesies causes you to think otherwise your interpretations are an error

It's that simple
If you think I am teaching there is more than one body of Christ, you have totally missed my point and the point of the scriptures. When you are quoting the letter to the Ephesians you are dealing with an explanation of the history from Acts 10 when the gentiles were first included in the body of Christ. The theme of this letter is "the mystery of Christ." The reason it is a mystery is because there is no promise of the inclusion of gentiles into this body in the OT or any mention of it. Therefore, one could not understand these truths through an OT study and it must be a revelation from God. That is exactly what Paul says it is in Eph 3. He says it here.

Eph 3:1 For this cause (the cause is the forming of the body of Christ - see previous chapter) I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: (gentile-ward)
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Following is the mystery in a nutshell:

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

The promise is the indwelling Holy Spirit who births the recipient into the family.

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Civic and others say the inclusion into the church is by election and Paul says here it is by the gospel. The term "in Christ" is a doctrine that fills up Paul's 13 letters.

It was not a mystery that God was going to indwell Israel because it is the subject of OT prophecies to them. Jesus even offered a mild rebuke to a Jewish ruler who was in the dark about being born of the Spirit. Consider it here.

Jn 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

God is not forming a new Israel, he is forming a new man. This new man is separate and different than Israel. He is forming it first by the remnant of believers of Israel and then he is adding the gentiles because, he says in Romans 11, Israel failed to believe in Christ and be saved. Israel was still in existence and were still unsaved when this epistle was written in AD 60. They are still unsaved at this very day. There are still unsaved nations today. Only those who have been born of the Spirit through faith in Christ is in this body. There are two people groups in this body, Jews and gentiles, and one God, the Spirit, and this makes the new man a trinitarian entity, in the image of God. This new man is formed to occupy heavenly realms with Christ and to be his bride in the same way that Eve was taken from the body of Adam and formed and then presented to him as his bride. This is what God is doing in this age.

The explanation of the church of Jesus Christ in the epistles of Paul agrees entirely with the history that unfolded in the book of Acts. Israel's promises are all earthward. They are the earthly people of God. He will keep his promises to them after the church leaves for heaven.

One simply must believe the words as they are given.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
If you think I am teaching there is more than one body of Christ, you have totally missed my point and the point of the scriptures.
One has nothing to do with the other

But based on your words do you therefore affirm Jew and Gentile together form one body under the one shepherd ?
 

JDS

Active member
One has nothing to do with the other

But based on your words do you therefore affirm Jew and Gentile together form one body under the one shepherd ?
Jew and gentile in one body with Christ as the head. It really is a family. It has nothing to do with a shepherd. Adam is the head of a family. Jesus is the head of a family. It is as simple as that.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Jew and gentile in one body with Christ as the head. It really is a family. It has nothing to do with a shepherd. Adam is the head of a family. Jesus is the head of a family. It is as simple as that.
Are you saying Christ is not the shepherd of the church

Heb. 13:20 —KJV
“Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,”

1 Pet. 2:25 —KJV
“For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.”

1 Pet. 5:4 —KJV
“And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.”
 

Redeemed

Well-known member
In the prologue of the book Deconstructing Calvinism by Hudson Smelley, is found this statement:

Calvinism completely compasses God's redemptive plan and teaches that God saves a small percentage of humanity based on His elective determination before creation and passes over the rest. Since God's redemptive plan excludes most people, there is no basis for us to tell a lost person that God loves them, that Jesus died for them, that they should believe in Christ for salvation, or that there is hope beyond the grave. If the lost person is not elect, we would be misleading them if we said any of those things. Indeed, it is difficult to see how we could make any honest gospel presentation knowing most people are by God's purposes not savable. Not only that, since salvation hangs on God's elective determination before creation and not on a present decision for Christ, we must make this TULIP reality personal. We must come to grips with the fact that many of those we know, and perhaps some of those closest to us, have no possibility of being reconciled to God because they are not elect.

What caught my eye is the idea that "there is no basis for us to tell a lost person that God loves them, that Jesus died for them, that they should believe in Christ for salvation, or that there is hope beyond the grave. If the lost person is not elect, we would be misleading them if we said any of those things."

I had always thought the Calvinistic evangelism was like searching for the proverbial needle in a haystack,, the rare Elect person in the mass of reprobates, but had never thought of the effect of the presentation of the gospel to those who would never be able to experience it. Smelley terms it "misleading" them to think that they might be savable, when in fact, there isn't a sliver of hope that this would happen.

What are your thoughts, either pro or con to Smelley's thought?


Doug
Hi Doug

I'll go with con which I think old Hudson here is trying to pull off on us. The reason I say that is because John Calvin was big on evangelism. John Calvin explains to us that Christ sows the seeds of life everywhere gathering His church not by human means but by heavenly power.

My Bible teaches me that one man plants, another man waters, but it's God who gives the increase. When the Holy Spirit that lives inside of me tells me to go talk to someone and tell them about Jesus I just go do it. The thought of whether they are part of the elect never enters my mind, it's not my job.

John Calvin also taught that the gospel "does not fall from the clouds like rain," but the gospel is "brought by the hands of man to where God has sent it." You See the power to save rests with God, but He reveals His salvation through the preaching of the gospel. But keep in mind it doesn't matter how good one might be at proclaiming the gospel our human effort doesn't have the last word, it's God who gives the increase.

Calvin goes on to say that if God doesn't give that increase in a day or a year that we are still to work diligently for the extension of Christ's kingdom and to know that our work will not be in vain.

Also The Reformation was responsible for a huge growth in evangelism and Christ's kingdom. And yet we hear over and over charges raised against Calvinism that it's not conductive to evangelism. Nothing could be further from the truth.


Those are my thoughts on Hudson's con job.

A much better book is (living for God's glory an introduction to Calvinism) by Joel Beeke with contributions from: Sinclair B. Ferguson • James grief • Michael Haykin • Nelson Kloosterman • Ray Lanning • Robert Oliver • Ray Pennings • Derek Thomas
 

civic

Well-known member
Are you saying Christ is not the shepherd of the church

Heb. 13:20 —KJV
“Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,”

1 Pet. 2:25 —KJV
“For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.”

1 Pet. 5:4 —KJV
“And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.”
Amen only someone with an agenda to push would deny Jesus is the Shepherd of the church and we(the church, body of Christ) are His sheep.
 

JDS

Active member
Are you saying Christ is not the shepherd of the church

Heb. 13:20 —KJV
“Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,”

1 Pet. 2:25 —KJV
“For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.”

1 Pet. 5:4 —KJV
“And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.”

Okay Tom, where in those three verses are you reading that Christ is the shepherd of the church? How can you see one word and change it to another? Why aren't you arguing that the church is a nations because of this verse?


1 Pet 2:9 "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Exo 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

There is no verse in the scriptures that equates gentiles or the church of Jesus Christ to sheep. God does not mix his metaphors. This is a fulfillment of prophecy to a people who had a particular relationship with God long before any gentiles were considered for the same relationship. He had cast them away in 722 BC without mercy and he said he would have mercy on them when he could receive them as children of God. He could now do that through the shed blood of Jesus Christ and he sent Peter and the apostles to deliver this good news of the gospel to them.

Paul, the apostle to the gentiles and the one who has been given the mystery of Christ and the doctrines of the church and who had it's revelation from God said nothing about sheep being the metaphor for Christians or the church. There are metaphors but sheep is not one of them. He did not even use the word sheep but one time and that is in Rom 8 where the context is the believers of Israel, not gentiles.

Jesus Christ said he came to fulfill the OT law and prophets. The mercy on those he drove off the land in 722 BC was to be fulfilled by him when they could become children of God. Through his death and resurrection they could be born again by believing the gospel of Christ. My position is God should be exalted for being able to keep his word to a people after seven hundred years instead of reading one word and seeing another in a text.

My advice to you is to believe the words that God has given us. Get you a good bible that has the words of God in it. It is no wonder you are confused. You folks try to convince us that words are not important and you all have a copy that says different words. There will be some people going to hell for that practice.

The nature of the NT church is gentile. The OT types of the church are men of Israel married to gentile women, like Boaz and Ruth, Isaac and Rebekah, Isaac and Rebekah and at least 5 others. Israel out of her land is likened to gentiles by God. These are facts. Gentiles are not sheep in God's list of metaphors.


We must not add to or take away from the words of God.
 
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