The Value of Evangelism in Reform Theology

TomFL

Well-known member
Okay Tom, where in those three verses are you reading that Christ is the shepherd of the church? How can you see one word and change it to another? Why aren't you arguing that the church is a nations because of this verse?
Who do you think are the recipients of the everlasting covenant ?


Heb. 13:20 —KJV
“Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,”

and does Jesus just appear to Jews ?

1 Pet. 5:4 —KJV
“And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.”
 

praise_yeshua

Active member
In the prologue of the book Deconstructing Calvinism by Hudson Smelley, is found this statement:

Calvinism completely compasses God's redemptive plan and teaches that God saves a small percentage of humanity based on His elective determination before creation and passes over the rest. Since God's redemptive plan excludes most people, there is no basis for us to tell a lost person that God loves them, that Jesus died for them, that they should believe in Christ for salvation, or that there is hope beyond the grave. If the lost person is not elect, we would be misleading them if we said any of those things. Indeed, it is difficult to see how we could make any honest gospel presentation knowing most people are by God's purposes not savable. Not only that, since salvation hangs on God's elective determination before creation and not on a present decision for Christ, we must make this TULIP reality personal. We must come to grips with the fact that many of those we know, and perhaps some of those closest to us, have no possibility of being reconciled to God because they are not elect.

What caught my eye is the idea that "there is no basis for us to tell a lost person that God loves them, that Jesus died for them, that they should believe in Christ for salvation, or that there is hope beyond the grave. If the lost person is not elect, we would be misleading them if we said any of those things."

I had always thought the Calvinistic evangelism was like searching for the proverbial needle in a haystack,, the rare Elect person in the mass of reprobates, but had never thought of the effect of the presentation of the gospel to those who would never be able to experience it. Smelley terms it "misleading" them to think that they might be savable, when in fact, there isn't a sliver of hope that this would happen.

What are your thoughts, either pro or con to Smelley's thought?


Doug

It is misleading. "Dangling the carrot" in front of the hopeless.

Besides. They don't preach the Gospel. They teach men they have to "wait" till God overpowers them when the Gospel message is COME NOW.
 

JDS

Active member
Who do you think are the recipients of the everlasting covenant ?


Heb. 13:20 —KJV
“Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,”

and does Jesus just appear to Jews ?

1 Pet. 5:4 —KJV
“And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.”


Why don't you just take a few lines in your next post and tell us what you think the everlasting covenant is? Let's get on the same page. Meanwhile I will offer you some help from the scriptures;

Genesis 9:16
And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.

Genesis 17:7
And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Genesis 17:13
He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Genesis 17:19
And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

Leviticus 24:8
Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the Lord continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant

2 Samuel 23:5
Although my house be not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things, and sure: for this is all my salvation, and all my desire, although he make it not to grow.

1 Chronicles 16:17
And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,

Psalm 105:10
And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:

Isaiah 24:5
The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

Isaiah 55:3
Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

Isaiah 61:8
For I the Lord love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.

Jeremiah 32:40
And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

Ezekiel 16:60
Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant.

Ezekiel 37:26
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

Hebrews 13:20
Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

I am wondering if you looked at the context of all those mentions of "everlasting" covenant and who they are addressed to if you woud not find out that all of them, especially the lone one in the NT, are addressed to Israel. Why is that? It is because you have quoted Eph 2 10-12 several times in this conversation and you want to make the point that gentiles did not have any covenants of promise from God, except through the Abrahamic covenant. That passage says that plainly and that is why gentiles had no hope in times' past. What God wants us gentiles to understand is that in his mercy and grace towards us he has made us to be PARTAKERS with Israel of their new covenant that gives us forgiveness of sins and his eternal presence, which is defined as life as opposed to death, the Holy Spirit to indwell us forever.

All the covenants of God is through the line of the family of Israel, every one. I did not say that, God did. Here;

Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

The first priority of God is to save his own people, nation through his Son, and then to save us gentiles. That is just a fact.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Why don't you just take a few lines in your next post and tell us what you think the everlasting covenant is? Let's get on the same page. Meanwhile I will offer you some help from the scriptures;

Genesis 9:16
And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.

Genesis 17:7
And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Genesis 17:13
He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Genesis 17:19
And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

Leviticus 24:8
Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the Lord continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant

2 Samuel 23:5
Although my house be not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things, and sure: for this is all my salvation, and all my desire, although he make it not to grow.

1 Chronicles 16:17
And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,

Psalm 105:10
And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:

Isaiah 24:5
The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

Isaiah 55:3
Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

Isaiah 61:8
For I the Lord love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.

Jeremiah 32:40
And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

Ezekiel 16:60
Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant.

Ezekiel 37:26
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

Hebrews 13:20
Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

I am wondering if you looked at the context of all those mentions of "everlasting" covenant and who they are addressed to if you woud not find out that all of them, especially the lone one in the NT, are addressed to Israel. Why is that? It is because you have quoted Eph 2 10-12 several times in this conversation and you want to make the point that gentiles did not have any covenants of promise from God, except through the Abrahamic covenant. That passage says that plainly and that is why gentiles had no hope in times' past. What God wants us gentiles to understand is that in his mercy and grace towards us he has made us to be PARTAKERS with Israel of their new covenant that gives us forgiveness of sins and his eternal presence, which is defined as life as opposed to death, the Holy Spirit to indwell us forever.

All the covenants of God is through the line of the family of Israel, every one. I did not say that, God did. Here;

Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

The first priority of God is to save his own people, nation through his Son, and then to save us gentiles. That is just a fact.
Seriously ?

In the book of Hebrews ?

Heb. 8:8 ¶ For he finds fault with them when he says:3
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah,
Heb. 8:13 ¶ In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Heb. 9:15 ¶ Therefore he is vthe mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.8
Heb. 12:24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Does the author define what he says is obsolete as everlasting ?

not likely
 

JDS

Active member
Seriously ?

In the book of Hebrews ?

Heb. 8:8 ¶ For he finds fault with them when he says:3
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah,
Heb. 8:13 ¶ In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Heb. 9:15 ¶ Therefore he is vthe mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.8
Heb. 12:24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Does the author define what he says is obsolete as everlasting ?

not likely
No, the law of Moses is not among the covenants that he said were everlasting. You can look and see if you will believe words. So far, it seems no one has. I would read 2 Cor 3 in this connection.
Ga 3 speaks about the Mosaic covenant being an addendum to the Abrahamic covenant to bring Israel to Christ. After that, the Abrahamic covenant is still in effect forever, but the Mosaic covenant is finished. Read it for yourself, here:

Ga 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, (after the Abrahamic covenant) cannot disannul, that it should make the promise (The promise is identified in this passage as the Spirit, who is life and salvation) of none effect.

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made;
(the promise was made to Abraham's offspring through Issac, Jesus Christ) and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.


21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.


25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Calvinists do not know anything about this.
 
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TomFL

Well-known member
No, the law of Moses is not among the covenants that he said were everlasting. You can look and see if you will believe words. So far, it seems no one has. I would read 2 Cor 3 in this connection.
Ga 3 speaks about the Mosaic covenant being an addendum to the Abrahamic covenant to bring Israel to Christ. After that, the Abrahamic covenant is still in effect forever, but the Mosaic covenant is finished. Read it for yourself, here:

No what ?

Heb. 13:20 —ESV
“¶ Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant,”

Are you agreeing this is speaking of the New covenant ?

Denying ?

If agreeing Christ is the great shepherd of the sheep

Does he Shepard just some that are his or all ?

If denying what blood is in view here ?
 

JDS

Active member
No what ?

Heb. 13:20 —ESV
“¶ Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant,”

Are you agreeing this is speaking of the New covenant ?

Denying ?

If agreeing Christ is the great shepherd of the sheep

Does he Shepard just some that are his or all ?

If denying what blood is in view here ?
Tom, you do not accept the fact that God has everlasting covenants that are made with his people Israel and you obviously see the church as being the final expression of God's dealing with Israel and the world. Your theology, at least in our conversation, does not include 4000 years of human history before Christ with the last 2000 of those dealing with God's own covenanted people Israel. Those promises he made to his own people is of no consequence to you and people who view the scriptures as if the words God says do not matter. I consider people like you to be a NT Christian and everything that you read in the scriptures is about you. Because of this you do not understand and will not accept that God has a glorious fulfillment of all his promises to Israel that were made to them in the OT, and through them to the nations of the world, after the completion of the church of Jesus Christ in this age. The doctrines and revelation of the church is not given through Peter or the apostles but through the special apostle, who was not even saved during the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ and was not saved until after the final rejection of the generation of Jesus Christ in Acts 7 when they killed Stephan and the gospel began to exceed the boundaries of Judah and made it's way to the gentiles in Acts 10, some 10 years after the Jews received the Holy Spirit. I have quoted verses that you have not accepted as true that said the revelation of the mystery of Christ, the church, the body of Christ was given to him and he said nothing about the church or gentiles being sheep. He did not use the word draw in any of his epistles. He did not say that gentiles were lost. He said gentiles were alienated from God and dead in sins. That is what he said. Reconciliation is made by God in Christ 2 Cor 5.

The OT prophets pictures Israel as being a sheep nation with a shepherd king and the picture of this in the OT is David. I could quote many verses to this end but I am learning that asking people to believe words as they are written and as they appear and to consider context is an exercise in futility. It is better you do not know these things than to know them and reject them. Peter sees these strangers he is writing to , not as the church only, but in the context of their future, beginning with the gospel of Christ, but in the context of OT promises that will some day be realized in them.

Israel, the nation, is the earthly people of God and the church of Jesus Christ is the heavenly people of God. God is forming the church from Jews and gentiles at this present time but that will be complete soon. Then God will deal with the nation Israel.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Tom, you do not accept the fact that God has everlasting covenants that are made with his people Israel and you obviously see the church as being the final expression of God's dealing with Israel and the world.
Again The author of Hebrew tells us the old covenant is obsolete and ready to vanish away

Heb. 8:13 —ESV
“¶ In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.”

Don't tell me you think the Jews are still under the old covenant

Further

Heb. 13:20 —ESV
“¶ Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant,”

What has the resurrection of Jesus have to do with the blood of the old covenant ?

It does not cohere

I seriously think your theology is driving your interpretation here
 

praise_yeshua

Active member
Israel, the nation, is the earthly people of God and the church of Jesus Christ is the heavenly people of God. God is forming the church from Jews and gentiles at this present time but that will be complete soon. Then God will deal with the nation Israel.

Ridiculous.

There is no Jew or Gentile. Do you believe that wall still stands? Paul said it was torn down....

All of the people of earth are God's people.

Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Israel, the nation, is the earthly people of God and the church of Jesus Christ is the heavenly people of God. God is forming the church from Jews and gentiles at this present time but that will be complete soon. Then God will deal with the nation Israel.
Sounds like dispensationalism to me

And do you believe Israel will go back to the old covenant and re-institute the sacrificial system once again
 

civic

Well-known member
Ridiculous.

There is no Jew or Gentile. Do you believe that wall still stands? Paul said it was torn down....

All of the people of earth are God's people.

Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Amen !
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Ridiculous.

There is no Jew or Gentile. Do you believe that wall still stands? Paul said it was torn down....

All of the people of earth are God's people.

Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Yep

Eph. 2:11–22 —KJV
Ҧ Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
¶ For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.”
 

JDS

Active member
No what ?

Heb. 13:20 —ESV
“¶ Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant,”

Are you agreeing this is speaking of the New covenant ?

Denying ?

If agreeing Christ is the great shepherd of the sheep

Does he Shepard just some that are his or all ?

If denying what blood is in view here ?
I can see now why you do not have any idea about the letters and the words in the scriptures and why you cannot understand them. You have either not ever read the OT or have not believed what you have read. Obviously from your comments you think there are two covenants only and it is an either/or proposition. I made the comment earlier that time and God dealing with humanity began with your birth and God is speaking only to you.

Have you ever heard of the Abrahamic covenant which God entered into with him in the beginning of the third millennium of history and then attached an addendum onto it, called the Mosaic covenant, or the Law of Moses, four hundred and thirty years later, this being 1500 years before the New Covenant in the blood of Jesus Christ. The covenants establishes principles of divine dealing over men. I actually quoted a passage to you already from Ga 3 that demonstrates this in such simple terms that only the most darkened eyes can not see.

The principle that God had been dealing with Israel, the physical seed of Abraham through Isaac and Jacob, was the principle of the written law, with Jehovah as their God. No gentiles were governed by God under this system. The system consisted of moral, civil, and ceremonial laws. They, the gentiles, were governed by the principle of human government in their own nations, and still are today. This system separated Israel from all the other nations of the world and was a source of enmity between them. The law of Moses as a covenant was added by God for a limited period of time in order to accomplish a certain purpose and would end when it was accomplished. The Abrahamic covenant, OTOH, was foundational and eternal and will never end, although there are parts of it that even now lacks fulfillment. The fact that God added the law should not be a signal that the Abrahamic covenant was now void. This is what I quoted to you in Ga 3.

The principle - works of the law, efforts of the flesh
The principle - faith in Jesus Christ, a response from the heart

Just read this passage and see if this makes any sense to you in this context.

Galatians 3​

King James Version​

3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Ga 6-9 a reference to the Abrahamic covenant from which comes the blessings to the nations. The Galatians were gentiles.

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Contrasting the principle of works under the law because it could only condemn.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.


12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

The law of Moses, which is a covenant, can not be imposed upon gentiles for salvation because it could not justify, only condemn. The promise of salvation, identified in this chapter as receiving the Spirit of Christ, which we know was poured out from Christ death on the cross and received by those who have faith in him.

Next he confirms the eternality of the Abrahamic covenant, which is the source of the promise of salvation to the nations and all people.

15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after (after the Abrahamic covenant), cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. (the covenant of law cannot disannul the promise of salvation in the Abrahamic covenant, he says)
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. (IOW, it cannot be earned by working, it is a gift)

Since that is true, why try to work for it?


Following is the reason from God that he attached the Mosaic covenant to the Abrahamic covenant that promises life.

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It ( the Mosaic covenant) was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. (How long is it going to be in effect as an operative principle of divine dealing with Israel? we are told it will be in effect UNTIL the Jesus comes and brings another principle into play, faith)
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. (the promise, life, righteousness and the Spirit are all synonyms here)

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise (see the synonyms above) by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Our salvation goes back to Abraham, not Moses.

I do not know why or if God calls preachers into the ministry that does not know anything about his word and does not believe the words he gives us to express his great truths. Every word above that I have quoted from God is true and they are not hard to understand. For Christians to not know anything about the covenants of God is a serious matter if they are attempting to influence other men.

All God's unconditional OT covenants to Israel were confirmed with an oath.

Abrahamic - For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
Land Covenant - Deuteronomy 29:12 That thou shouldest enter into covenant with the Lord thy God, and into his oath, which the Lord thy God maketh with thee this day:
Davidic -
Psa 89:3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, 4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.

Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

It is becoming increasingly obvious that it is not that some people cannot understand but they will not understand because they will not believe words and accept the context in which they are spoken.
 

JDS

Active member
Ridiculous.

There is no Jew or Gentile. Do you believe that wall still stands? Paul said it was torn down....

All of the people of earth are God's people.

Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Now look, you should give some thought to what you are saying before you say it. The church of Jesus Christ is formed from two people groups that God recognizes on this earth sine the birth of his nation in Egypt. The church had it's beginning in Acts 2 when the Spirit was sent from God for this ministry.

Here is that division now and it does not include the elimination of the two people groups, Jew and gentile as you propose. It represents an addition of one.

1 Cor 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I can see now why you do not have any idea about the letters and the words in the scriptures and why you cannot understand them. You have either not ever read the OT or have not believed what you have read. Obviously from your comments you think there are two covenants only and it is an either/or proposition. I made the comment earlier that time and God dealing with humanity began with your birth and God is speaking only to you.

LOL What has any of this to with Hebrews and why did you not address directly what was stated


Heb. 13:20 —ESV
“¶ Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant,”

Are you agreeing this is speaking of the New covenant ?

Denying ?

If agreeing Christ is the great shepherd of the sheep

Does he Shepard just some that are his or all ?

If denying what blood is in view here ?

Now what covenant is spoken of in Hebrews 13

................................................

Now Hebrews speaks particularly of two (though there were others) The Old covenant and the new

The blood of this covenant brought Christ back from the dead

What covenant would that be ?

Heb. 8:8 ¶ For he finds fault with them when he says:3
g“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah,
Heb. 8:13 ¶ In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Heb. 9:10 but deal only with food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation.
Heb. 9:15 ¶ Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.8
Heb. 12:24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Your problem arises because you are trying to stuff your theology into a passage with no regard for context

and you cannot cover that up with run on verbiage
 

praise_yeshua

Active member
Now look, you should give some thought to what you are saying before you say it. The church of Jesus Christ is formed from two people groups that God recognizes on this earth sine the birth of his nation in Egypt. The church had it's beginning in Acts 2 when the Spirit was sent from God for this ministry.

Here is that division now and it does not include the elimination of the two people groups, Jew and gentile as you propose. It represents an addition of one.

1 Cor 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
I abandoned Dispensationalism close to 30 years ago. It didn't take a rocket science book to know that was an inconsistent ever changing invention of a few men. The very name is based upon a poor English translation of a very common Greek word.

As far as 1 Cor 10:32. Yes. There were Jews when Paul wrote 1 Cor 10:32. There were also Gentiles. Literally national cultures on the earth. He wasn't trying to offend them.

That has nothing to do with the facts of what I mentioned. There is no wall that stands between them anymore. You don't believe that. You have that wall still standing in your theology. All peoples of the earth are God's offspring just like Paul preached to a ton of Gentiles in Acts 17.
 

David1701

New Member
Since John 3:16 is in the Bible, and "world" means all mankind, then we can, and should be preaching it!
So, how does God love the world? Like this: everyone who believes in Jesus Christ will be saved, which is exactly what I posted.

Paul told the Athenians that God is not very far from any one (meaning there was no individual Athenian that God didn't want to reach out for and find him), and so by extension there is no individual that God is very far from, he is very close to any one of us! (Acts 17:27)


Doug
You have made two unwarranted assumptions here.

1) You have assumed what "not very from any one" means, without providing any evidence for your claim and without considering any other possibilities.

2) You have assumed that God has wants that he cannot fulfil (i.e. wishful thinking).
 

David1701

New Member
Really ?

1 Cor. 15:1–3 —KJV
Ҧ Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;”
Brethren (i.e. an assembly of the elect), Christ died for OUR sins, according to the Scriptures. Paul is agreeing with the Lord Jesus, when he told us that he died for the "sheep", from Jews and Gentiles and that he died for his "bride".
 

David1701

New Member
Does one need to be saved in order to hear repent and believe?
No, of course not. You cannot be said to be saved UNTIL you have repented and believed in Jesus Christ; however, you MUST be born again, in order to enter the kingdom of God (John 3 - Jesus talking to Nicodemus), which we do by faith in Jesus Christ.

The biblical order is:

1) Born again by the power of the Holy Spirit

2) Repent/believe the gospel

3) Justified and forgiven

4) Given the Holy Spirit to indwell

5) Adopted into God's family
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
No, of course not. You cannot be said to be saved UNTIL you have repented and believed in Jesus Christ; however, you MUST be born again, in order to enter the kingdom of God (John 3 - Jesus talking to Nicodemus), which we do by faith in Jesus Christ.

The biblical order is:

1) Born again by the power of the Holy Spirit

2) Repent/believe the gospel

3) Justified and forgiven

4) Given the Holy Spirit to indwell

5) Adopted into God's family
We disagree on this. See a person cannot repent and believe until they are saved from the power of sin.
 
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