The Value of Evangelism in Reform Theology

Theo1689

Well-known member
BADG says it means all mankind, especially (but not exclusively) believers.

Doug

You are uninformed, or intentionally misrepresenting BDAG.
It gives that as one of MANY meanings of the word.

But it does NOT say, "but not exclusively".

The fact that you have to CHANGE the definition of the term in order to try to support your false theology speaks volumes.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
You are uninformed, or intentionally misrepresenting BDAG.
It gives that as one of MANY meanings of the word.

But it does NOT say, "but not exclusively".

The fact that you have to CHANGE the definition of the term in order to try to support your false theology speaks volumes.
You ignore the fact BAGD does so in key passages

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
No, I'm not "ignoring" ANY such thing.

But thank for quoting the entry, so that the poster who originally made the claim can actually see that it does NOT say, "(but not exclusively)".

edit
Again you run from the facts

You ignore the fact BAGD does so in key passages

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

Key passages that appear in my op Jn 3:16 12:47

John 3:16–17 (ESV)

For God So Loved the World
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

John 12:47 (ESV)
47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.

Now in place of world substitute the all mankind of BAGD

here also

John 6:33 (ESV)
33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

John 6:51 (ESV)
51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

doing so clearly reveals an unlimited atonement - Christ died for all
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
Again you run from the facts

Please lose the insults.
I'm not "running" from anything.

You ignore the fact BAGD does so in key passages

Nope.
YOU are the one who "ignores" BDAG.

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

Now in place of world substitute the all mankind of BAGD

So why are you IGNORING the "especially of believers" from BDAG's definition?!

YOU are the one ignoring BDAG, not me...
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Please lose the insults.
I'm not "running" from anything.



Nope.
YOU are the one who "ignores" BDAG.



So why are you IGNORING the "especially of believers" from BDAG's definition?!

YOU are the one ignoring BDAG, not me...
Sorry that does not help you and your claim is totally false''

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

all mankind is obviously more extensive that just those who believe

Why did you ignore it and then pretend I was ignoring BDAG ?

It was a rather weak and unforthright effort
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Sorry that does not help you and your claim is totally false''

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

Why did you ignore "especially of believers" and then pretend I was ignoring BDAG ?

It was a rather weak and unforthright effort

;)


(This post has been brought to you by Prov. 26:5, and the letter "H". ;) )
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Td

Since God's redemptive plan excludes most people, there is no basis for us to tell a lost person that God loves them, that Jesus died for them
That's right you should not tell anyone Christ died for them and God loves them. That's not biblical witness. Look in book of acts, full of evangelism, never are sinners told that. Wonder if you tell someone that and Christ didn't die for them, or God does not Love them. You told them a lie.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Is there a difference between unconverted and not- yet-unconverted? Especially since we've established that they were "unconverted" at the time. (Since we're getting more specific.)

Where does Paul say the elect in 1 Corinthians 15?

Doug
He doesn't have to say elect in 1 Cor 15 to be speaking of the Elect.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Why did you ignore "especially of believers" and then pretend I was ignoring BDAG ?

It was a rather weak and unforthright effort

;)


(This post has been brought to you by Prov. 26:5, and the letter "H". ;) )
The facts do not change

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

you cannot remove the "of all mankind"

neither there or here

Metonymically, the world meaning the inhabitants of the earth, men, mankind (Matt. 5:14; 13:38; John 1:29; 3:16; Rom. 3:6, 19; 1 Cor. 4:13; 2 Cor. 5:19; Heb. 11:7; 2 Pet. 2:5; 1 John 2:2).

Complete word study dictionary



(3) all of humanity (Matt. 5:14; John 3:16; 1 Cor. 4:13); Holman treasury of bible words



the inhabitants of the world: θεατρον εγενηθημεν τω κοσμω και αγγελοις και ανθρωποις, 1 Corinthians 4:9 (Winer's Grammar, 127 (121)); particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race (first so in Sap. (e.g.10:1)): Matthew 13:38; 18:7; Mark 14:9; John 1:10, 29 (36 L in brackets); 3:16f; 6:33,51; 8:26; 12:47; 13:1; 14:31; 16:28; 17:6,21,23; Romans 3:6,19; 1 Corinthians 1:27f

Thayers Greek Engflish lexicons



(c) by metonymy, the "human race, mankind," e.g., Matt. 5:14; John 1:9 [here "that cometh (RV, 'coming') into the world" is said of Christ, not of "every man;" by His coming into the world He was the light for all men]; John 1:10; John 3:16, 17 (thrice),19; John 4:42, and frequently in Rom. 1 Cor. and 1 John; Vines expositorydictionary

and John's use of world clearly includes those who never believe


John 12:47 (KJV 1900)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
The facts do not change

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

you cannot remove the "of all mankind"

neither there or here

Metonymically, the world meaning the inhabitants of the earth, men, mankind (Matt. 5:14; 13:38; John 1:29; 3:16; Rom. 3:6, 19; 1 Cor. 4:13; 2 Cor. 5:19; Heb. 11:7; 2 Pet. 2:5; 1 John 2:2).

Complete word study dictionary



(3) all of humanity (Matt. 5:14; John 3:16; 1 Cor. 4:13); Holman treasury of bible words



the inhabitants of the world: θεατρον εγενηθημεν τω κοσμω και αγγελοις και ανθρωποις, 1 Corinthians 4:9 (Winer's Grammar, 127 (121)); particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race (first so in Sap. (e.g.10:1)): Matthew 13:38; 18:7; Mark 14:9; John 1:10, 29 (36 L in brackets); 3:16f; 6:33,51; 8:26; 12:47; 13:1; 14:31; 16:28; 17:6,21,23; Romans 3:6,19; 1 Corinthians 1:27f

Thayers Greek Engflish lexicons



(c) by metonymy, the "human race, mankind," e.g., Matt. 5:14; John 1:9 [here "that cometh (RV, 'coming') into the world" is said of Christ, not of "every man;" by His coming into the world He was the light for all men]; John 1:10; John 3:16, 17 (thrice),19; John 4:42, and frequently in Rom. 1 Cor. and 1 John; Vines expositorydictionary

and John's use of world clearly includes those who never believe


John 12:47 (KJV 1900)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Well God didn't love all humanity ! Ps 5:5

5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Tom

John 12:47 (KJV 1900)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world

That's the World of His People/Sheep He came to Save Matt 1:21
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Well God didn't love all humanity ! Ps 5:5

5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Do you imagine scripture contradicts itself ?

John 3:16–17 (ESV)

For God So Loved the World
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

All before salvation were workers of iniquity, ungodly and enemies of God

Romans 5:10 (KJV 1900)
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Ephesians 2:3 (KJV 1900)
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Romans 5:6–8 (KJV 1900)
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Yet God demonstrated his love by sending Christ to die
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Do you imagine scripture contradicts itself ?

John 3:16–17 (ESV)

For God So Loved the World
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

All before salvation were workers of iniquity, ungodly and enemies of God

Romans 5:10 (KJV 1900)
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Ephesians 2:3 (KJV 1900)
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Romans 5:6–8 (KJV 1900)
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Yet God demonstrated his love by sending Christ to die
No. But God hates the workers of iniquity. No doubt about it. So your understanding of Jn 3:16 is error!
 

TomFL

Well-known member
No. But God hates the workers of iniquity. No doubt about it. So your understanding of Jn 3:16 is error!
Sorry previous to salvation all have worked iniquity
So you believe God loved no one ?

The issue comes down to how one defines the characteristic of love.

According to Paul, “love does not seek its own,” and thus it is best described as “self-sacrificial” rather than “self-serving” (1 Cor. 13:5). As Jesus taught, “Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.” It seems safe to say that love at its very root is self-sacrificial. Anything less than that should not be called “love.” One may refer to “kindness” or “care” in reflection of some common provisions for humanity, but unless it reaches the level of self-sacrifice it does not seem to meet the biblical definition of true love.

Given that biblical definition of love as “self-sacrifice,” let us consider Christ’s command to love our enemies. Is this an expectation Christ himself is unwilling to fulfill? As we asked in the beginning, is He being hypocritical in this command? Of course not. The very reason He told His followers to love their enemies is “in order that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven…” (Matt. 5:45).

The meaning is undeniable. We are to love our enemies because God loves His enemies. He loves both “the righteous and the unrighteous” in exactly the same way we are told to love our enemies. The greatest commandment instructs us to “love our neighbor as ourselves” (Lev. 19:18; Matt. 22:37-38). “And who is our neighbor?” (Lk. 10:29). The pagan Samaritans, who were detested as enemies of God.

In short, Jesus is teaching us to self-sacrificially love everyone, even our worse enemies, because that reflects the very nature of God Himself. LCF
 
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