The Value of Evangelism in Reform Theology

David1701

New member
The term elect does not appear in either verse

John 3:16 —KJV
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

John 6:51 —KJV
“I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

World does

And the parallel passage to Jn 3:17

John 12:47 —KJV
“And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.”

shows world cannot carry such a meaning
Oh, good, grief!

I said NOTHING about "world" meaning "elect" (nor does it mean that).

I said NOTHING about either verse containing the term "elect".

What I DID say, you have not addressed at all (that only the elect believe and that faith is a gift from God).

Complete and utter FAIL!
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Oh, good, grief!

I said NOTHING about "world" meaning "elect" (nor does it mean that).

I said NOTHING about either verse containing the term "elect".

What I DID say, you have not addressed at all (that only the elect believe and that faith is a gift from God).

Complete and utter FAIL!

Lets see

Previous discussion went

TomFL said:
By giving his son for the world

John 3:16 —KJV
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

John 6:51 —KJV
“I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

Were these not the words of your reply
Only the elect, to whom God gives repentance and faith in Jesus Christ, believe in Him.

John Just stated he gave his son to the world

and that he gives his life for the world

you said only to the elect

Noting that the word elect is not a meaning of the word World

Is therefore a valid response

the only way both you and john could be correct is the two words were equated

Additional scripture I posted shows they could not

John 12:47 —KJV
“And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.”

So the fail here belongs to you
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Oh, good, grief!

I said NOTHING about "world" meaning "elect" (nor does it mean that).

I said NOTHING about either verse containing the term "elect".

What I DID say, you have not addressed at all (that only the elect believe and that faith is a gift from God).

Complete and utter FAIL!

Straw-manning.

The only way that poster (I originally typed in "poser", interesting typo!) can hope to win an argument is to MISREPRESENT his opponents. Pathetic.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Straw-manning.

The only way that poster (I originally typed in "poser", interesting typo!) can hope to win an argument is to MISREPRESENT his opponents. Pathetic.
Yes you effort is pathetic

If John says it applies to the world

and one says its applies only to the elect

The only possibly way both could be true is if world and elect are equated
 

JDS

Member
Try again

If all are resurrected at the last day

and are resurrection at Christs advent

they both are the same day

Equally judgment is at the last

John 12:48 —ESV
“The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.”
You have been quoting 1 Cor 15::20 in almost every response and that verse says the following, "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept." That is a resurrection and it is not on the last day. When our Lord Jesus rose from the dead there were other OT saints who were raised with him, and for them, it was not on the last day. This proves what you have been quoting that there is an "order" to the resurrection and it is not on the same day. Those OT saints, the subject of John 6, is in the order that is different than 1 Cor 15 which describes the resurrection of the church of Jesus Christ, which did not exist when Jesus spoke about the last day to the Jews. This proves he is not speaking of the last day of time. Also, these first fruit saints will be judged but they have not been judged yet. They will be judged at the judgment. They had a time of resurrection and they will have a time of judgment. Resurrection and judgment does not have to be on the same day.

Matthew 27:53
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

There is an order to the first resurrection and your insistence on re-writing the biblical account or ignoring the report of these eye witness accounts is wrong.

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end,

The end is not the end of the world, earth, time, as you would no doubt teach, but it is the completion of the church and it's physical resurrection and the redemptive efforts of this age. The church is the subject of this epistle. The first verse in the letter will tell you that if you will receive it. Jesus Christ was not giving out church doctrine in John 6, 7, 11, and 12. The church was a mystery until Paul was given the revelation about it according to his own testimony in Eph 3.

The completion of verse 24 above defines the end. - .........when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Now, read those verses and then read a statement that was written to the Hebrews about 12 years after 1 Corinthians was written. Compare them;

Heb 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world (age) to come, whereof we speak. (You do not believe in an age to come no matter how many times God says it)
6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now (in AD 66 and continuing until today) we see not yet all things put under him.
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Two problems with you and Civic. 1) You think history began and will end with you and 2) you do not believe the words of scriptures.

John 6 has a context that is different from 1 Cor 15. It is as simple as that. Jesus Christ will one day rule on this earth as King over men who have the capability of dying whether your incomplete understanding of God and scriptures allows for it or whether you don't. Hundreds of verses in both testaments assures us of that fact. Unbelief is a problem with you.
____________________________________________________
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Yes you effort is pathetic

If John says it applies to the world

and one says its applies only to the elect

The only possibly way both could be true is if world and elect are equated

Sorry, but that is simply FALSE.

We do NOT believe that "world" means "elect".
We have NEVER claimed that "world" means "elect".

We do NOT believe that "all" means "some".
We have NEVER claimed that "all" means "some".

So when you present that argument, you simply look foolish, because you're not arguing against anyone.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Sorry, but that is simply FALSE.

We do NOT believe that "world" means "elect".
We have NEVER claimed that "world" means "elect".

We do NOT believe that "all" means "some".
We have NEVER claimed that "all" means "some".

So when you present that argument, you simply look foolish, because you're not arguing against anyone.
Sorry no it is not false

It is simple logic

John say the verses apply to the world

if anyone say they apply to the elect alone

then that is true only if world is equated with the elect

whether it is stated or not

whether one wants to claim it or not
 

civic

Active member
You have been quoting 1 Cor 15::20 in almost every response and that verse says the following, "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept." That is a resurrection and it is not on the last day. When our Lord Jesus rose from the dead there were other OT saints who were raised with him, and for them, it was not on the last day. This proves what you have been quoting that there is an "order" to the resurrection and it is not on the same day. Those OT saints, the subject of John 6, is in the order that is different than 1 Cor 15 which describes the resurrection of the church of Jesus Christ, which did not exist when Jesus spoke about the last day to the Jews. This proves he is not speaking of the last day of time. Also, these first fruit saints will be judged but they have not been judged yet. They will be judged at the judgment. They had a time of resurrection and they will have a time of judgment. Resurrection and judgment does not have to be on the same day.

Matthew 27:53
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

There is an order to the first resurrection and your insistence on re-writing the biblical account or ignoring the report of these eye witness accounts is wrong.

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end,

The end is not the end of the world, earth, time, as you would no doubt teach, but it is the completion of the church and it's physical resurrection and the redemptive efforts of this age. The church is the subject of this epistle. The first verse in the letter will tell you that if you will receive it. Jesus Christ was not giving out church doctrine in John 6, 7, 11, and 12. The church was a mystery until Paul was given the revelation about it according to his own testimony in Eph 3.

The completion of verse 24 above defines the end. - .........when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Now, read those verses and then read a statement that was written to the Hebrews about 12 years after 1 Corinthians was written. Compare them;

Heb 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world (age) to come, whereof we speak. (You do not believe in an age to come no matter how many times God says it)
6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now (in AD 66 and continuing until today) we see not yet all things put under him.
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Two problems with you and Civic. 1) You think history began and will end with you and 2) you do not believe the words of scriptures.

John 6 has a context that is different from 1 Cor 15. It is as simple as that. Jesus Christ will one day rule on this earth as King over men who have the capability of dying whether your incomplete understanding of God and scriptures allows for it or whether you don't. Hundreds of verses in both testaments assures us of that fact. Unbelief is a problem with you.
____________________________________________________
And many do not believe in a millennial reign of Christ but do believe in the new heavens and new earth where Christ reigns forever. And many believe His Reign began at His Resurrection when he conquered, sin, death and the devil. There is only 1 resurrection to come which can be proven without controversy and that is on the Last Day, all others are debatable as to when those happened or will happen. The same is true with the rapture there are 4 valid views which is why that is controversial as well. Even though I personally believe is a pre-trib I'm not dumb enough to be dogmatic about it for it is a non essential doctrine. The lesson is all of this concerning the future and the resurrection and 2nd Coming is for believers as the bride to be ready for he Bridegroom for He will come at an hour when least expected as a thief in the night, therefor be a wise virgin with your lamps ready and full of oil.

So maybe unbelief is your problem not ours and maybe just maybe your doctrine is focused on the wrong thing instead of the Person of Christ and being ready for His Return. And sharing that hope of the gospel with those who do not know our Lord. His Return and our future Resurrection should be a motivator for sharing the gospel.

1 John 2:2

He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world

Hebrews 2:14

Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil,

2 Timothy 1:10

And which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

hope this helps !!!
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Yes you effort is pathetic

If John says it applies to the world

and one says its applies only to the elect

The only possibly way both could be true is if world and elect are equated
That's easy it's the world of His own Sheep. That's who He came to specifically give life to Jn 10:10

The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Now who are they here in Vs 10?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
You have been quoting 1 Cor 15::20 in almost every response and that verse says the following, "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept." That is a resurrection and it is not on the last day. When our Lord Jesus rose from the dead there were other OT saints who were raised with him, and for them, it was not on the last day. This proves what you have been quoting that there is an "order" to the resurrection and it is not on the same day. Those OT saints, the subject of John 6, is in the order that is different than 1 Cor 15 which describes the resurrection of the church of Jesus Christ, which did not exist when Jesus spoke about the last day to the Jews. This proves he is not speaking of the last day of time. Also, these first fruit saints will be judged but they have not been judged yet. They will be judged at the judgment. They had a time of resurrection and they will have a time of judgment. Resurrection and judgment does not have to be on the same day.

Get real we are speaking of the resurrection of believers not Christ

and as for those who walked around at the time of Christ we do not know it was not a simple resustation ala
lazarus rather than a resurrection to immortality

What we do know is that Jesus on multiple occasion stated those who believed in him will be raised at the last day


We also know the bible speaks of the resurrection not resurrection

John 11:24 Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in ithe resurrection on the last day.”

W also know

1 Cor. 15:22–23 —KJV
“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.”

all are resurrection at CFhrist's coming

there you have it

Christ the firstfruit

after that those who are Christs at his coming


as stated forget your esoteric appeals to Jewish feasts and believe the new testament
 

TomFL

Well-known member
That's easy it's the world of His own Sheep. That's who He came to specifically give life to Jn 10:10

The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Now who are they here in Vs 10?
the bible says nothing about a world of sheep and sheep cannot be made to fit in this context

John 12:47 —KJV
“And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.”

where world obviously includes those who will not believe
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
the bible says nothing about a world of sheep and sheep cannot be made to fit in this context

John 12:47 —KJV
“And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.”

where world obviously includes those who will not believe
Who did jesus Christ come to give life to in Jn 1 0:10 please?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Sorry no it is not false

It is simple logic

John say the verses apply to the world

if anyone say they apply to the elect alone

then that is true only if world is equated with the elect

whether it is stated or not

whether one wants to claim it or not
I don't know why you have such difficulty understanding that:

YOU do NOT get to tell us what we believe.
YOU do NOT get to tell us what we're claiming.
YOU do NOT get to tell us what our "logic" is.

You can disagree with us if you wish.
You can think we're "illogical" if you wish.
But Christians are NOT allowed to bear false witness against others.
Sadly, you don't understand that you simply destroy your own credibility when you behave this way.
 

JDS

Member
Sorry, but that is simply FALSE.

We do NOT believe that "world" means "elect".
We have NEVER claimed that "world" means "elect".

We do NOT believe that "all" means "some".
We have NEVER claimed that "all" means "some".

So when you present that argument, you simply look foolish, because you're not arguing against anyone.
The word elect or chosen is a word that applies only to a certain group of people that God has set aside for a particular purpose. He has chosen them out of a larger group. The fact that they are elect does not necessarily mean they are saved, it just means they are in the group that is set aside for the designated purpose. One truth about the elect that is a fact is that all the elect of God have been elected as the result of their birth. For instance, the first elect of God are those who are born of Abraham through Isaac and Jacob. Here is an amazing fact for you to consider; Abraham was born about 2000 years after the creation of the world and there were no people before him who were designated as elect. Why is that, do you think. It is because of Romans chapter 5 and verse 12, which reads thusly;

______________________

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"
_____________________

That one man of course is Adam. Obviously those people who are born of Adam are not the elect of God through their birth because they are going to die. Now if God had not decided to step into human history and created another family in which to be born then there would be no hope for any man. But God did create another family and made a way for the family members of Adam to be reborn into this family that will never die. Therefore God's purposes in election could be realized through a birth and he would elect all those who are in this family.

How then did God do that. well, first of all he created a highway for for another man who would live perfectly and not ever sin one time. His perfect life would qualify him as a sacrifice for all men who have sinned and his own life, which is the Spirit who indwelled him and gave him the power over the flesh to live without sin could then be given to anyone who would receive it and would indwell them forever, thus by his presence they would be alive unto God. God calls this a birth. He calls it being born again. The head of this man now is Christ, not Adam. God elects this man because he has a whole family and this family is one family of many members. No one is elect in the family of Adam because of their birth but any of the family of Adam is elect when they are in the family of Christ because of their new birth. God has elected this family and so therefore one is not elect before his new birth.

Now, let's examine this election a little closer. God said he elected Israel. Does this mean all Israel were saved. No, it does not mean all the members of this people were saved. What it does mean is that those before Abraham who were godly and justified by faith in what God said to them are covered by the blood of Christ who died for all who have believed God, no matter when they lived. Justification is always by faith. A just man in the eyes of God is a man who has been counted righteous. God had a special purpose for this family called Israel and this family only and those who were born before them and believed God were not called elect. God had a special purpose for Israel. God was going to teach the world about himself through this family, who was also a nation. He wanted the world to know he is the only true God, That he was always good but just, and that he was providing a highway for the seed of the woman who would take away the sin of the world and bless the whole world through them.

Abel, Noah, Shem and such like were not said to be elect because they were not part of the collective. One must be born of Isaac and Jacob to be elect. Abraham had other sons but they and their family were not elect.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

This only means that Jacob was favored over Esau because of the purpose of election through whom he would make the family to accomplish his will. This reasoning is for the purpose of demonstrating that those who are born of Christ, who is the choice of God would be his children.

People in this age who have been born into the family of God through Christ are elected by virtue of their birth and not anything else. This is who God chooses. As a conversational inclusion to my statements, there is no verse in the scriptures that says that Israel was ever "unelected." If God could unelect Israel, he could unelect you.

Here is the rule.

Men are not in the family of God because they have been elected, but, they have been elected because they have been born into the family.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Here is the rule.

Men are not in the family of God because they have been elected, but, they have been elected because they have been born into the family.

Who caused them to be "born into the family"?

Did you choose your parents?
 

JDS

Member
Who caused them to be "born into the family"?

Did you choose your parents?
You did not choose Adam as the head of you race but you can choose Christ by believing what God says about him. It is obvious from your comments over time that you have not done that yet.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
You did not choose Adam as the head of you race but you can choose Christ by believing what God says

The Bible says you're wrong.
I believe the Bible.

about him. It is obvious from your comments over time that you have not done that yet.

My Lord and Saviour will deal with you when you one day meet your maker.
Bearing false witness is a sin. You should learn that.
 

civic

Active member
You did not choose Adam as the head of you race but you can choose Christ by believing what God says about him. It is obvious from your comments over time that you have not done that yet.
No you cannot as per John 1:13- not by human decision/will but by, of ,through God.
And Jesus said you did not choose Me but I chose you.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
You did not choose Adam as the head of you race but you can choose Christ by believing what God says about him. It is obvious from your comments over time that you have not done that yet.
That's false. The elect were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. That's before they existed to make any choice. It's all God's choice before the world began. Rom 9 and Eph 1
 

JDS

Member
That's false. The elect were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. That's before they existed to make any choice. It's all God's choice before the world began. Rom 9 and Eph 1
God did not even choose you to be born physically, let alone to be born again. Your parents chose your natural birth. If there were not a physical union there would be no you. God provided a way for those who were born physically to be born again. No one can be born again for you. You must be born again.
 
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