The Value of Evangelism in Reform Theology

civic

Well-known member
God did not even choose you to be born physically, let alone to be born again. Your parents chose your natural birth. If there were not a physical union there would be no you. God provided a way for those who were born physically to be born again. No one can be born again for you. You must be born again.
What bible are you reading ?


Psalm 139
13For You formed my inmost being; You knit me together in my mother’s womb.14I praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Marvelous are Your works, and I know this very well.…

Psalm 139:16
You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed.

Job 10:11
You clothed me with skin and flesh, and knit me together with bones and sinews.

Ecclesiastes 11:5
As you do not know the path of the wind, or how the bones are formed in a mother's womb, so you cannot understand the work of God, the Maker of all things.

Isaiah 44:24
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who by Myself spread out the earth,

Psalm 22:9,10
But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts…

Psalm 71:6
By thee have I been holden up from the womb: thou art he that took me out of my mother's bowels: my praise shall be continually of thee.

Job 31:15
Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb?

hope this helps !!!

but I highly doubt it will and you will hold your doctrine above the truth in these passages.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I don't know why you have such difficulty understanding that:

YOU do NOT get to tell us what we believe.
YOU do NOT get to tell us what we're claiming.
YOU do NOT get to tell us what our "logic" is.

You can disagree with us if you wish.
You can think we're "illogical" if you wish.
But Christians are NOT allowed to bear false witness against others.
Sadly, you don't understand that you simply destroy your own credibility when you behave this way.
And I don't know why you have such difficulty understanding basic logic

TomFL said:
Sorry no it is not false

It is simple logic

John say the verses apply to the world

if anyone say they apply to the elect alone

then that is true only if world is equated with the elect

whether it is stated or not

Hello what part did you not understand

whether one wants to claim it or not
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Who did jesus Christ come to give life to in Jn 1 0:10 please?
Those who follow him

The question however concerns the meaning of world and it is not sheep

the bible says nothing about a world of sheep and sheep cannot be made to fit in this context

John 12:47 —KJV
“And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.”

where world obviously includes those who will not believe
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
God did not even choose you to be born physically, let alone to be born again. Your parents chose your natural birth. If there were not a physical union there would be no you. God provided a way for those who were born physically to be born again. No one can be born again for you. You must be born again.
Bunch of nonesene
 

JDS

Active member
Bunch of nonesene
Your problem is that you re on here trying to defend the Calvinistic system that you have adopted as truth. It is not. It puts a spin on almost every doctrine in the scriptures and invents terms that I call prop doctrines because they are necessary to keep the reader from believing the words he reads and comes out believing what I believe. Calvinism is a great deception. The scriptures say, "believe and be saved," but the Calvinist says, "be saved and believe." Where do you stand?
 

JDS

Active member
What bible are you reading ?


Psalm 139
13For You formed my inmost being; You knit me together in my mother’s womb.14I praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Marvelous are Your works, and I know this very well.…

Psalm 139:16
You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed.

Job 10:11
You clothed me with skin and flesh, and knit me together with bones and sinews.

Ecclesiastes 11:5
As you do not know the path of the wind, or how the bones are formed in a mother's womb, so you cannot understand the work of God, the Maker of all things.

Isaiah 44:24
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who by Myself spread out the earth,

Psalm 22:9,10
But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts…

Psalm 71:6
By thee have I been holden up from the womb: thou art he that took me out of my mother's bowels: my praise shall be continually of thee.

Job 31:15
Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb?

hope this helps !!!

but I highly doubt it will and you will hold your doctrine above the truth in these passages.
Civic, you are proving my point that I have been making in several of my threads and many of my comments. Everything is about you. For instance, Psa 139 is not about you or me. It is about Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Look at what Jesus said here;

Lk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

These words are not about you and your visit here on the planet does not fulfill them. EDITED

Now, having said that, the bible is a spiritual book and you have liberty to make spiritual applications, but to say this is about you is over the top.
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
And I don't know why you have such difficulty understanding basic logic

Riiiiiiiiiight.

We're always the ones having difficulty understanding.

You could NEVER be the one who doesn't understand, right.

We disagree.
You haven't made your case.
You have to MISREPRESENT us to try to "win" an argument.
That's why you have zero credibility.

TomFL said:
Sorry no it is not false

I'm sorry, I don't recognize you as King of the World.
You simply refuse to accept correction.
And that's NOT a good thing.




It is simple logic

John say the verses apply to the world

if anyone say they apply to the elect alone

then that is true only if world is equated with the elect

whether it is stated or not

Repeating yourself 20 million times doesn't accomplish anything.
That's why James taught that "not many should be teachers".
You clearly do not know how to teach.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Riiiiiiiiiight.

We're always the ones having difficulty understanding.

You could NEVER be the one who doesn't understand, right.

We disagree.
You haven't made your case.
You have to MISREPRESENT us to try to "win" an argument.
That's why you have zero credibility.



I'm sorry, I don't recognize you as King of the World.
You simply refuse to accept correction.
And that's NOT a good thing.






Repeating yourself 20 million times doesn't accomplish anything.
That's why James taught that "not many should be teachers".
You clearly do not know how to teach.
I believe I said you

It is simple logic

John says the verses apply to the world

if anyone say they apply to the elect alone

then that is true only if world is equated with the elect

whether it is stated or not

Then of course BDAG does not support you either

nor does context

John 12:47 —KJV
“And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.”

but you are not open to any evidence

finally to correct someone you first need to give evidence of error

seeing as you do not and do not address rebuttal; you have no means by which to provide correction
 

civic

Well-known member
Civic, you are proving my point that I have been making in several of my threads and many of my comments. Everything is about you. For instance, Psa 139 is not about you or me. It is about Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Look at what Jesus said here;

Lk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

These words are not about you and your visit here on the planet does not fulfill them. The arrogance of thinking it does is overwhelming to me.

Now, having said that, the bible is a spiritual book and you have liberty to make spiritual applications, but to say this is about you is over the top.
nice evasive move on your part the fact is your days were numbered before you were born which contradicts your prior post.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
but you are not open to any evidence

You mean I'm not allowed to DISAGREE with your OPINION.

I've CONSIDERED your "evidence".
It is not compelling.

You cannot bully someone into "agreeing" with you.
Calling people names will not cause them to "agree" with you.
Maybe one day you will learn that.
Or maybe not.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
You mean I'm not allowed to DISAGREE with your OPINION.

I've CONSIDERED your "evidence".
It is not compelling.

You cannot bully someone into "agreeing" with you.

Or maybe not.
Sorry you never dealt with it

And perhaps you should heed your own advise

Calling people names will not cause them to "agree" with you.
Maybe one day you will learn that.

as that is all you do.

It's called projection Theo
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Sorry you never dealt with it

I don't NEED to "dealt with it".

I just need to consider it (which I did), evaluate it (which I did), and come to my own conclusion (which I did).

If I read a book, and disagree with the author's conclusions, I don't feel any need to contact the author and justify myself to him/her. That's simply ridiculous.

Calling people names will not cause them to "agree" with you.

Well, you're the one calling names, which is one of the reasons I'm disinclined to have a theological discussion with you.

It's called projection Theo

Nope. It's called, "You're in denial, Tom."
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Those who follow him

The question however concerns the meaning of world and it is not sheep

the bible says nothing about a world of sheep and sheep cannot be made to fit in this context

John 12:47 —KJV
“And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.”

where world obviously includes those who will not believe
Say it please. According to John 10:10 who did Jesus come here to give life to?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Your problem is that you re on here trying to defend the Calvinistic system that you have adopted as truth. It is not. It puts a spin on almost every doctrine in the scriptures and invents terms that I call prop doctrines because they are necessary to keep the reader from believing the words he reads and comes out believing what I believe. Calvinism is a great deception. The scriptures say, "believe and be saved," but the Calvinist says, "be saved and believe." Where do you stand?
That's it? Repent of the nonsense!
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
I believe I said you

It is simple logic

John says the verses apply to the world

if anyone say they apply to the elect alone

then that is true only if world is equated with the elect

whether it is stated or not

Then of course BDAG does not support you either

nor does context

John 12:47 —KJV
“And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.”

but you are not open to any evidence

finally to correct someone you first need to give evidence of error

seeing as you do not and do not address rebuttal; you have no means by which to provide correction
The World Christ came to save is the World of His people the Sheep His people. Matt 1:21 that is the promise. Faith believes the promise!
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Your problem is that you re on here trying to defend the Calvinistic system that you have adopted as truth.

Everything you have written is 100% false.

I used to be a Calvinism-hating Arminian, and the more I read the Bible, the more I could see that that Bible taught "Calvinism". I hated it. I didn't want it to be true! I denied it for as long as I could. But at one point I could no longer deny it. Either I had to accept that Calvinism is true, or else I had to reject the Bible, since the Bible clearly teaches Calvinism. (It's similar to my brother's struggle, he's gay and wanted to believe the Bible, as both were important to him. After years of study, he had to come to the conclusion that the Bible taught homosexuality to be wrong, and he disagreed with it, so he had to reject Christianity. It's not a decision that comes easily.)

So here I was, convinced by the Bible that "Calvinism" is true, all the while worshipping in an Arminian-leaning church. The words of the Bible seemed clear, but I was a new Christian, and I didn't know the whole Bible, so maybe I was wrong in my intepretation. So I sought advice from my friend's parents, since his father was an elder at our church. He reassured me that I had come across the true message of the Bible (he had come from a Baptist background).

Over time I would find out that MANY prominent theologians over the years and centuries had likewise discovered this wonderful truth. When Luther and Calvin studied the Bible for themselves, instead of blindly listening to Rome, this is what they found as well. It was plain to:

- Charles Spurgeon;
- John Gill;
- Jonathan Edwards;
- John Newton (author of "Amazing Grace");
- John Bunyan;
- A. T. Roberts;
- John MacArthur;
- R.C. Sproul;
- John Piper
- Alistair Begg;

... and even goes as far back as Augustine, in his disputes with Arius.

And it can be found prior to Augustine, in the writings of the ECF's.

It is not. It puts a spin on almost every doctrine in the scriptures

You're ASSUMING a particular set of "doctrines".
All you're saying here is that those doctrines are different than YOUR doctrines.
That's doesn't make them wrong, because you could be (and IMO, are) the one who is wrong.

and invents terms that I call prop doctrines because they are necessary to keep the reader from believing the words he reads and comes out believing what I believe. Calvinism is a great deception.

You have a right to an OPINION.
And we have a right to reject your OPINION.

The scriptures say, "believe and be saved," but the Calvinist says, "be saved and believe." Where do you stand?

Wrong.
NO Calvinist has EVER said, 'be saved and believe".
Calvinists have taught FOREVER that salvation comes FROM believing, not leading TO believing.

But hey, if you want to go there:

Bible: "and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed." (Acts 13:48)
You: "and as many as BELIEVED were then appointed to eternal life."

Bible: "but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep." (John 10:26)
You: "But you are not of my sheep, BECAUSE you do not BELIEVE."

Bible: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." (John 6:44)
You: "EVERYONE can come to me, all you have to do is CHOOSE!"
 

civic

Well-known member
In the prologue of the book Deconstructing Calvinism by Hudson Smelley, is found this statement:

Calvinism completely compasses God's redemptive plan and teaches that God saves a small percentage of humanity based on His elective determination before creation and passes over the rest. Since God's redemptive plan excludes most people, there is no basis for us to tell a lost person that God loves them, that Jesus died for them, that they should believe in Christ for salvation, or that there is hope beyond the grave. If the lost person is not elect, we would be misleading them if we said any of those things. Indeed, it is difficult to see how we could make any honest gospel presentation knowing most people are by God's purposes not savable. Not only that, since salvation hangs on God's elective determination before creation and not on a present decision for Christ, we must make this TULIP reality personal. We must come to grips with the fact that many of those we know, and perhaps some of those closest to us, have no possibility of being reconciled to God because they are not elect.

What caught my eye is the idea that "there is no basis for us to tell a lost person that God loves them, that Jesus died for them, that they should believe in Christ for salvation, or that there is hope beyond the grave. If the lost person is not elect, we would be misleading them if we said any of those things."

I had always thought the Calvinistic evangelism was like searching for the proverbial needle in a haystack,, the rare Elect person in the mass of reprobates, but had never thought of the effect of the presentation of the gospel to those who would never be able to experience it. Smelley terms it "misleading" them to think that they might be savable, when in fact, there isn't a sliver of hope that this would happen.

What are your thoughts, either pro or con to Smelley's thought?


Doug
Doug would you be interested in this dialogue ?

 

civic

Well-known member
It seems to me to be somewhat contradictory to what Paul preached

1 Corinthians 15 (KJV 1900)
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Paul indiscriminately preached Christ died for our sins to the unconverted

2 Corinthians 5:14–21 (KJV 1900)
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Tom would you be interested as well ?

 

TomFL

Well-known member
I don't NEED to "dealt with it".

I just need to consider it (which I did), evaluate it (which I did), and come to my own conclusion (which I did).

If I read a book, and disagree with the author's conclusions, I don't feel any need to contact the author and justify myself to him/her. That's simply ridiculous.



Well, you're the one calling names, which is one of the reasons I'm disinclined to have a theological discussion with you.



Nope. It's called, "You're in denial, Tom."
If you had any thing by way of refutation we would have seen it

But you don't so we did not see it

but There you go projecting again

Mat 7:6 ring a bell ?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
If you had any thing by way of refutation we would have seen it

I've refuted you, you simply ignore it, and then challenge me again.
That's why I'm not interested in wasting my time.
I don't need your "approval" in order to be right with God.
but There you go projecting again

Mat 7:6 ring a bell ?

Yep, that's why I'm not interested in theological discussion with people with chips on their shoulders.
 
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