The Value of Evangelism in Reform Theology

TomFL

Well-known member
Tom would you be interested as well ?


Hi Civic

No I would not

I am typically in bed by 9:00 PM every night

additionally that type of forum would not be sufficient to cover Issues in any depth

I am here however
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I've refuted you, you simply ignore it, and then challenge me again.
That's why I'm not interested in wasting my time.
I don't need your "approval" in order to be right with God.


Yep, that's why I'm not interested in theological discussion with people with chips on their shoulders.
Now you are dreaming. You have never refuted me and most of the time you offer no rebuttal at all

which is why so many discussions end with me challenging you to respond and you refusing to do so

BTW why is it your posts are filled with this type of junk.

This is supposed to be a theology forum

It might be a good idea to Present some theology
 

David1701

New Member
Lets see

Previous discussion went

TomFL said:
By giving his son for the world

John 3:16 —KJV
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

John 6:51 —KJV
“I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

Were these not the words of your reply
Only the elect, to whom God gives repentance and faith in Jesus Christ, believe in Him.

John Just stated he gave his son to the world

and that he gives his life for the world

you said only to the elect

Noting that the word elect is not a meaning of the word World

Is therefore a valid response

the only way both you and john could be correct is the two words were equated

Additional scripture I posted shows they could not

John 12:47 —KJV
“And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.”

So the fail here belongs to you
World, when referring to people, usually means Jews and Gentiles in general (without specifying how many)

I said that only the elect are given repentance and faith in Jesus Christ, not that "world" equals "elect".

If Jesus came to save (not to make savable but actually to save) the world, and he did, then it means one of two things:

1) World does not mean every single person

or

2) Jesus failed hugely

We believe that Jesus actually did save the world (i.e. people from every nation, tribe and tongue), when he shed his blood and died on the cross.

Your scheme necessitates that Jesus failed massively, although, of course, you will refuse to accept your blasphemy.
 

David1701

New Member
the bible says nothing about a world of sheep and sheep cannot be made to fit in this context

John 12:47 —KJV
“And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.”

where world obviously includes those who will not believe
So, according to TomFL, Jesus came to save those who will not believe! That is certainly anti-Christian teaching, since only those who believe in him will be saved.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
So, according to TomFL, Jesus came to save those who will not believe! That is certainly anti-Christian teaching, since only those who believe in him will be saved.
According to the bible

John 12:47 —KJV
“And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.”

I am not the author of John's gospel

Christ came to save the world

Some will not believe and will be judged on the last day

other will believe and be saved

That is Christian teaching !
 

TomFL

Well-known member
World, when referring to people, usually means Jews and Gentiles in general (without specifying how many)

I said that only the elect are given repentance and faith in Jesus Christ, not that "world" equals "elect".

If Jesus came to save (not to make savable but actually to save) the world, and he did, then it means one of two things:

1) World does not mean every single person

or

2) Jesus failed hugely

We believe that Jesus actually did save the world (i.e. people from every nation, tribe and tongue), when he shed his blood and died on the cross.

Your scheme necessitates that Jesus failed massively, although, of course, you will refuse to accept your blasphemy.
Not here

John 12:47 —KJV
“And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.”

as world includes those who will not believe

Christ will not judge unbelievers (at that time - they will be judged at the last day) because he came to save the world

Thus it is easy to see unbelievers cannot be excluded from the word world

and seeing as it parallels

John 3:17 —KJV
“For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”

not there either

With that in view

John 3:14–18 —KJV
“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

and God giving his son to the world which includes unbelievers who will be judged at the last day

we have proof for an unlimited atonement
 

TomFL

Well-known member
World, when referring to people, usually means Jews and Gentiles in general (without specifying how many)

In John world typically denotes the mass of mankind in opposition to God and/or his people

John 7:7 —KJV
“The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.”

John 15:19 —KJV
“If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

John 16:8 —KJV
“And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:”

John 16:20 —KJV
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.”

John 16:33 —KJV
“These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.”


John 17:14 —KJV
“I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.”

John 17:16 —KJV
“They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.”

John 17:25 —KJV
“O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.”
 

JDS

Active member
Its the old anglo Israelism gene scott use to teach the same heresy. I watch him in the 80's I'm ashamed to admit but I learned to search the scripture like the bereans to see if those things were true. I wouldn't be surprised if jds believes in numerology the hidden message via numbers in scripture and pyramidology as well.
I am coming back to deal with this comment about how God uses bible numbers since you linked me with a false teacher and without my mentioning a single thing about the subject of numbers in the scriptures from which you could draw this conclusion. Your comments just highlights another evidence that you have very little confidence in the infinite mind of God and that he has expressed himself in particular words that he himself has chosen. The numbers in the scriptures are words as well. The scriptures, every word of them, claims inspiration of God. Therefore, logic says the numbers of God in his bible are inspired as well as any other word in the scriptures and are profitable for doctrine and instruction like every other scripture.

Now, lets say you follow your standard practice of following the man made and erroneous, and even blasphemous limited atonement teachings of John Calvin and those later people who have created prop up doctrines concerning his TULIP and whatever he says about numbers. Someone has already told you that the words of the 39 books of the OT, written to record the workings of God over the first 4000 years of human history, beginning at the creation, are not all true and do not have to be believed. Therefore it is easy to follow your reasoning that the numbers of God adds nothing to his revelation of himself and the wisdom of his workings.

Using your logic, I can imagine a conversation in heaven between God, and say Gabriel, that might go like this.

Gabriel - God, I was reading your Bible and noticed you sure use the number seven a lot.
God - I do, I hadn't noticed
Gabriel - Yeah, You completed the creation in seven days, you made seven continents, you have seven days in a week, seven notes in a scale, seven colors in a spectrum, seven years in the tribulation, forty nine sets of sevens in the Revelation, all those seven trumpets, seven vials, and on and on.
God - Hmmnnn
Gabriel -There are other numbers too that follows a pattern
God - Well, Gabriel, inspiration can just go so far. I have my guy named Civic down on earth. He has trouble believing the words in the first 39 books I wrote. He sure isn't going to buy into inspiration of numbers. He and others like him are teaching not to pay any attention to numbers because they have no particular inspirational value.
Gabriel - Oh, okay!

BTW, Civic, God's numbers are not hidden as you suppose, no more than any other teaching. God says his revelation is hidden from them who are lost. He delights in teaching the inquiring minds of believers, but believers are those who know he has expressed himself in words he has chosen. The method of learning is by comparison of words. There is a consistency in how God uses numbers that develops into a pattern that becomes a doctrine. I have discovered that the number seven is used for complete things, the whole bottle of wax, if you will. Time is six thousand years old and there is a thousand years left if one believes the words God says about how he counts time as a thousand years equals a day and a day is as a thousand years and the completion of his redemptive purposes follows the seven day week pattern. After that, the new heaven and new earth. Of course you are too spiritual to believe that.

2 Pet 3: But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
 

civic

Well-known member
I am coming back to deal with this comment about how God uses bible numbers since you linked me with a false teacher and without my mentioning a single thing about the subject of numbers in the scriptures from which you could draw this conclusion. Your comments just highlights another evidence that you have very little confidence in the infinite mind of God and that he has expressed himself in particular words that he himself has chosen. The numbers in the scriptures are words as well. The scriptures, every word of them, claims inspiration of God. Therefore, logic says the numbers of God in his bible are inspired as well as any other word in the scriptures and are profitable for doctrine and instruction like every other scripture.

Now, lets say you follow your standard practice of following the man made and erroneous, and even blasphemous limited atonement teachings of John Calvin and those later people who have created prop up doctrines concerning his TULIP and whatever he says about numbers. Someone has already told you that the words of the 39 books of the OT, written to record the workings of God over the first 4000 years of human history, beginning at the creation, are not all true and do not have to be believed. Therefore it is easy to follow your reasoning that the numbers of God adds nothing to his revelation of himself and the wisdom of his workings.

Using your logic, I can imagine a conversation in heaven between God, and say Gabriel, that might go like this.

Gabriel - God, I was reading your Bible and noticed you sure use the number seven a lot.
God - I do, I hadn't noticed
Gabriel - Yeah, You completed the creation in seven days, you made seven continents, you have seven days in a week, seven notes in a scale, seven colors in a spectrum, seven years in the tribulation, forty nine sets of sevens in the Revelation, all those seven trumpets, seven vials, and on and on.
God - Hmmnnn
Gabriel -There are other numbers too that follows a pattern
God - Well, Gabriel, inspiration can just go so far. I have my guy named Civic down on earth. He has trouble believing the words in the first 39 books I wrote. He sure isn't going to buy into inspiration of numbers. He and others like him are teaching not to pay any attention to numbers because they have no particular inspirational value.
Gabriel - Oh, okay!

BTW, Civic, God's numbers are not hidden as you suppose, no more than any other teaching. God says his revelation is hidden from them who are lost. He delights in teaching the inquiring minds of believers, but believers are those who know he has expressed himself in words he has chosen. The method of learning is by comparison of words. There is a consistency in how God uses numbers that develops into a pattern that becomes a doctrine. I have discovered that the number seven is used for complete things, the whole bottle of wax, if you will. Time is six thousand years old and there is a thousand years left if one believes the words God says about how he counts time as a thousand years equals a day and a day is as a thousand years and the completion of his redemptive purposes follows the seven day week pattern. After that, the new heaven and new earth. Of course you are too spiritual to believe that.

2 Pet 3: But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
Look I don't care about numbers or secret meanings of bible numerics. That is your obsession not mine.

Let me ask you this are the 6 days in Genesis 1 literal days (24 hours) or figurative meaning a period of time ?
 

JDS

Active member
Get real we are speaking of the resurrection of believers not Christ

and as for those who walked around at the time of Christ we do not know it was not a simple resustation ala
lazarus rather than a resurrection to immortality

What we do know is that Jesus on multiple occasion stated those who believed in him will be raised at the last day


We also know the bible speaks of the resurrection not resurrection

John 11:24 Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in ithe resurrection on the last day.”

W also know

1 Cor. 15:22–23 —KJV
“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.”

all are resurrection at CFhrist's coming

there you have it

Christ the firstfruit

after that those who are Christs at his coming


as stated forget your esoteric appeals to Jewish feasts and believe the new testament
 

TomFL

Well-known member
TomFL said:
Get real we are speaking of the resurrection of believers not Christ

and as for those who walked around at the time of Christ we do not know it was not a simple resustation ala
lazarus rather than a resurrection to immortality

What we do know is that Jesus on multiple occasion stated those who believed in him will be raised at the last day


We also know the bible speaks of the resurrection not resurrections

John 11:24 Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”

One specific resurrection

We also know

1 Cor. 15:22–23 —KJV
“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.”

all are resurrection at Christ's coming

there you have it

Christ the firstfruit

after that those who are Christs at his coming


as stated forget your esoteric appeals to Jewish feasts and believe the new testament

Amen
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Now, lets say you follow your standard practice of following the man made and erroneous, and even blasphemous limited atonement teachings of John Calvin and those later people who have created prop up doctrines concerning his TULIP and whatever he says about numbers.

Civic asks you about "numbers", and all you do is try to attack Calvinism.
Can you say, "red herring"? (I knew you could...)

You have not demonstrated that the teachings of John Calvin are:
(1) "man-made" (He got them from the Bible):
(2) "erroneous";
(3) "blasphemous".

Indeed, I'm not sure that you even understand what the concept of "blasphemous" means.
People throw that word around like it was confetti, just like they overuse the word, "racist".

Someone has already told you that the words of the 39 books of the OT, written to record the workings of God over the first 4000 years of human history, beginning at the creation, are not all true and do not have to be believed.

Oh?
Who said that?
And why do you believe them?
 

civic

Well-known member
Civic asks you about "numbers", and all you do is try to attack Calvinism.
Can you say, "red herring"? (I knew you could...)

You have not demonstrated that the teachings of John Calvin are:
(1) "man-made" (He got them from the Bible):
(2) "erroneous";
(3) "blasphemous".

Indeed, I'm not sure that you even understand what the concept of "blasphemous" means.
People throw that word around like it was confetti, just like they overuse the word, "racist".



Oh?
Who said that?
And why do you believe them?
Agreed he is misusing the word !
 

JDS

Active member
Get real we are speaking of the resurrection of believers not Christ

and as for those who walked around at the time of Christ we do not know it was not a simple resustation ala
lazarus rather than a resurrection to immortality

What we do know is that Jesus on multiple occasion stated those who believed in him will be raised at the last day
It is you who have been quoting the passage in 1 Cor 15 that says Jesus Christ is the firstfruits of the resurrection and now you are wanting to distance yourself from the words of that text.


1 Cor 15: But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The word firstfruits is a plural word. There was a resurrection of many and if the resurrection was to eternal life, then your argument that they may have been raised to die again is a cop out and worse. The fact is that God in his OT ceremonial law has painted the picture of the resurrection with a physical brush that we can observe. It is the feast of firstfruits in the seven feasts of Israel. This is the third feast which precipitates the first festival of Israel. It is in the spring at the wheat harvest. It does not occur at the main harvest.

Lev 23:9 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:
11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the Lord, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
12 And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the Lord.

It is a "sheaf." It is not a single stalk. The burnt offering is a single Lamb but there are many stalks in the sheaf that is the wave offering.

13 And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the Lord for a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin.
14 And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the selfsame day that ye have brought an offering unto your God: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.

These feasts of Israel are prophetic in their typology Four of the feast of Israel have been fulfilled literally. However they are feasts of Israel and the gentiles in the church is a mystery, meaning the teaching is in the types but could not be understood unless there was special revelation. No gentiles who was not a proselyte could participate in the OT observations of these ceremonies. It would be unheard of. However, they are in the typology presented to us in the feast of weeks. Seven sabbaths = 49 days and day fifty (Pentecost) was the offering.

15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:
16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the Lord.
17 Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals; they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the Lord.

This is how long it was between the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the giving of the Spirit of God to give life in the Acts. The two loaves represent the two people groups, Jew and gentile, and the leaven shows that, Though redeemed with the Spirit, leaven is still in the loaves. Leaven is a picture of sin. The time associated with this feast is between Pentecost and the feast of trumpets, which is in the Fall, the first day of the seventh month. (October).

New Testament truths are rooted in OT types and prophecies. It is the means by confirming your doctrines of God.

God will once again deal with Israel as a nation and his people after this in the feasts of Day of Atonement and Tabernacles when Israel will once again be dwelling in the land in tents.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
It is you who have been quoting the passage in 1 Cor 15 that says Jesus Christ is the firstfruits of the resurrection and now you are wanting to distance yourself from the words of that text.


1 Cor 15: But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The word firstfruits is a plural word. There was a resurrection of many and if the resurrection was to eternal life, then your argument that they may have been raised to die again is a cop out and worse. The fact is that God in his OT ceremonial law has painted the picture of the resurrection with a physical brush that we can observe. It is the feast of firstfruits in the seven feasts of Israel. This is the third feast which precipitates the first festival of Israel. It is in the spring at the wheat harvest. It does not occur at the main harvest.
How did you come with such an absurd claim

Nowhere did I distance myself from the text

It should have been rathe plain the resurection of believers were underdiscussions

and you still have not dealt with all this

What we do know is that Jesus on multiple occasion stated those who believed in him will be raised at the last day


We also know the bible speaks of the resurrection not resurrections

John 11:24 Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”

One specific resurrection

We also know

1 Cor. 15:22–23 —KJV
“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.”

all are resurrected at Christ's coming

there you have it

Christ the firstfruit

after that those who are Christs at his coming

nor have you dealt with passages previously cited

Resurrection is on the last day

John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of hall that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who look's on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 11:24 Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”

Whoever believes on the son is raised up at the last day

It is at the last Trumpet

1 Cor. 15:51–54 —ESV
“Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.””

at Christ's return

1 Cor. 15:22–23 —ESV
“For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.”

1 Th. 4:15–17 —ESV
“For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them
in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.”

and the living will be caught up as well at that time

and there was even more


as stated forget your esoteric appeals to Jewish feasts and believe the new testament
 

JDS

Active member
Civic asks you about "numbers", and all you do is try to attack Calvinism.
Can you say, "red herring"? (I knew you could...)

You have not demonstrated that the teachings of John Calvin are:
(1) "man-made" (He got them from the Bible):
(2) "erroneous";
(3) "blasphemous".

Indeed, I'm not sure that you even understand what the concept of "blasphemous" means.
People throw that word around like it was confetti, just like they overuse the word, "racist".



Oh?
Who said that?
And why do you believe them?
You are using democrat tactics. Civic did not ask me about numbers, he arbitrarily accused me of following a cult leader and false teacher when I had mentioned nothing about numbers.
 

civic

Well-known member
You are using democrat tactics. Civic did not ask me about numbers, he arbitrarily accused me of following a cult leader and false teacher when I had mentioned nothing about numbers.
Are the days in Genesis 1 literal (24 hours)or figurative days ?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
You are using democrat tactics. Civic did not ask me about numbers, he arbitrarily accused me of following a cult leader and false teacher when I had mentioned nothing about numbers.
Sounds like fighting words - democrat tactics
 
Top