The Value of Evangelism in Reform Theology

TibiasDad said:
In the prologue of the book Deconstructing Calvinism by Hudson Smelley, is found this statement:

Calvinism completely compasses God's redemptive plan and teaches that God saves a small percentage of humanity based on His elective determination before creation and passes over the rest. Since God's redemptive plan excludes most people, there is no basis for us to tell a lost person that God loves them, that Jesus died for them, that they should believe in Christ for salvation, or that there is hope beyond the grave. If the lost person is not elect, we would be misleading them if we said any of those things. Indeed, it is difficult to see how we could make any honest gospel presentation knowing most people are by God's purposes not savable. Not only that, since salvation hangs on God's elective determination before creation and not on a present decision for Christ, we must make this TULIP reality personal. We must come to grips with the fact that many of those we know, and perhaps some of those closest to us, have no possibility of being reconciled to God because they are not elect.

What caught my eye is the idea that "there is no basis for us to tell a lost person that God loves them, that Jesus died for them, that they should believe in Christ for salvation, or that there is hope beyond the grave. If the lost person is not elect, we would be misleading them if we said any of those things."

I had always thought the Calvinistic evangelism was like searching for the proverbial needle in a haystack,, the rare Elect person in the mass of reprobates, but had never thought of the effect of the presentation of the gospel to those who would never be able to experience it. Smelley terms it "misleading" them to think that they might be savable, when in fact, there isn't a sliver of hope that this would happen.

What are your thoughts, either pro or con to Smelley's thought?


Doug
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Sounds like one has no gospel to preach if one consistently holds to those beliefs
 
TomFL said:
Except you imagined world in Jn 3:16 referred to a place and you were refuted by

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

better to not mention your "exegesis"
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Gotta just luv BDAG !!!
 
TibiasDad said:
Thanks for replying, Tom, but I'm not sure why your objecting. Smelley is not saying that Reformist don't preach, though Hyper-Cals would lean in that direction, but that the preaching is, on its foundation, a little shady in its presentation.

If they preach 'God so loved the world', they don't say 'God so loved the elect of the world', which is what they really mean and understand the verse to say. They don't say to a group of people that God desires to save some of you but most of you are up the creek without a paddle, and thereby, is a type of "misleading" those they are reprobates and without hope. They can't truthfully say that Christ died for their sins and they can be forgiven.

Doug
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Yes that’s exactly right . That is another book I’ll be reading soon in the OP. Deconstructing is a great thing imho :)
 
Theo1689 said:
Nor does the Bible ever teach us to.

Oops!
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oops

1 Corinthians 15:1–11 (ESV) — 1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. 11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.
 
fltom said:
oops

1 Corinthians 15:1–11 (ESV) — 1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. 11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.
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Amen it’s universal in scope without exception.
 
This is an older post, but it got quoted, and it prompted some replies by me.

TibiasDad said:
In the prologue of the book Deconstructing Calvinism by Hudson Smelley, is found this statement:

Calvinism completely compasses God's redemptive plan
Click to expand...

I'm not positive what is being said here, but I fear that it is a criticism based on the author's PERSONAL opinion of "God's redemptive plan", and since Calvinism doesn't agree with Smelley's understanding, Calvinism must be wrong.

This is fallacious thinking.

Calvinism must only be evaluated based on the Bible, not one man's opinion.

TibiasDad said:
and teaches that God saves a small percentage of humanity based on His elective determination before creation and passes over the rest.
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Since that's what the Bible teaches, what's the problem?

TibiasDad said:
Since God's redemptive plan excludes most people, there is no basis for us to tell a lost person that God loves them, that Jesus died for them,
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The Bible never TEACHES us to go around telling everyone, "Jesus died for YOU!!!!!"
Why are YOU trying to change the gospel?

TibiasDad said:
that they should believe in Christ for salvation,
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Christ never teaches that, so why should we?
Christ taught that IF you believe in Christ, you will be saved.

It's not an "instruction manual", it's a LITMUS test.

TibiasDad said:
or that there is hope beyond the grave.
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Of course we can teach there is hope beyond the grave.
The main reason being, we don't know that any person is not elect!

But the author seems to be putting the cart before the horse.
The gospel should be presented BEFORE more detailed theology ("milk before meat"), so "elect" shouldn't even be on the table for discussion.

TibiasDad said:
If the lost person is not elect, we would be misleading them if we said any of those things.
Click to expand...

So don't say them!
Simply proclaim the gospel like Jesus did!

1) God is holy;
2) You are a sinner;
3) Your sins have put you on a path to hell.
4) But God sent His son to die for sin.
5) If you believe, you will be saved.

That's PRECISELY what Jesus taught.
And that's PRECISELY what Calvinists believe and teach.

TibiasDad said:
Indeed, it is difficult to see how we could make any honest gospel presentation knowing most people are by God's purposes not savable.
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Well, telling unbelievers that "Christ died for YOU!!!!!!!!" is NOT an "honest gospel presentation". It simply isn't Biblical.

TibiasDad said:
Not only that, since salvation hangs on God's elective determination before creation and not on a present decision for Christ, we must make this TULIP reality personal.
Click to expand...

Amen!
God doesn't mindlessly present a gospel for "whoever".
"Who are you intending to save, God?". "Uh, I dunno... Whoever."

No, the gospel presented in the Bible is intensely PERSONAL!
He died for ME!
He died for my buddy Doug!
He died for ReverendRV!
He died for Howie!
He died For TibiasDad!

He died for SPECIFIC people whom He CHOSE!
How incredibly PERSONAL of Him!

Not some mere nameless group of .... "I dunno... Whoever."


TibiasDad said:
We must come to grips with the fact that many of those we know, and perhaps some of those closest to us, have no possibility of being reconciled to God because they are not elect.
Click to expand...

You're trying to blame God for man's sins.
The reason many are sent (by God) to hell, is NOT because "God didn't choose them".
The reason they are sent (by God) to hell is because they are ENEMIES of God, and SINNED against their Creator.

And yes, we all have loved ones who won't be saved.
That's not our call, it's God's.
God has no obligation to save all our (or any of) our loved ones.
God had no obligation to save US.



I've said it once, and I'll say it again... When God finally forced me to admit to myself that "Calvinism" is true, and I finally embraced it....

God became a million times more holy in my eyes.
And my sins became a million times more wretched than I realized.
And I knew how MUCH I deserved hell.
And God's love became a MILLION times greater than I had ever imagined.

"Amazing love!
How can it be?
That you, my King, should die for me?"
 
Chalcedon said:
What Bible are you reading lol
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The Holy Bible.
ESV, to be precise.

But I'll accept the KJV, NET, or NASB, if you can show me a verse of any Christian walking up to an unbeliever and telling them, "Christ died for YOU!"

Let me guess... It's right next to the verse that teaches Judas was "drawn"?
Somewhere in 2nd Opinions, perhaps?

Oops!
 
Theo1689 said:
This is an older post, but it got quoted, and it prompted some replies by me.



I'm not positive what is being said here, but I fear that it is a criticism based on the author's PERSONAL opinion of "God's redemptive plan", and since Calvinism doesn't agree with Smelley's understanding, Calvinism must be wrong.

This is fallacious thinking.

Calvinism must only be evaluated based on the Bible, not one man's opinion.



Since that's what the Bible teaches, what's the problem?



The Bible never TEACHES us to go around telling everyone, "Jesus died for YOU!!!!!"
Why are YOU trying to change the gospel?



Christ never teaches that, so why should we?
Christ taught that IF you believe in Christ, you will be saved.

It's not an "instruction manual", it's a LITMUS test.



Of course we can teach there is hope beyond the grave.
The main reason being, we don't know that any person is not elect!

But the author seems to be putting the cart before the horse.
The gospel should be presented BEFORE more detailed theology ("milk before meat"), so "elect" shouldn't even be on the table for discussion.



So don't say them!
Simply proclaim the gospel like Jesus did!

1) God is holy;
2) You are a sinner;
3) Your sins have put you on a path to hell.
4) But God sent His son to die for sin.
5) If you believe, you will be saved.

That's PRECISELY what Jesus taught.
And that's PRECISELY what Calvinists believe and teach.



Well, telling unbelievers that "Christ died for YOU!!!!!!!!" is NOT an "honest gospel presentation". It simply isn't Biblical.



Amen!
God doesn't mindlessly present a gospel for "whoever".
"Who are you intending to save, God?". "Uh, I dunno... Whoever."

No, the gospel presented in the Bible is intensely PERSONAL!
He died for ME!
He died for my buddy Doug!
He died for ReverendRV!
He died for Howie!
He died For TibiasDad!

He died for SPECIFIC people whom He CHOSE!
How incredibly PERSONAL of Him!

Not some mere nameless group of .... "I dunno... Whoever."




You're trying to blame God for man's sins.
The reason many are sent (by God) to hell, is NOT because "God didn't choose them".
The reason they are sent (by God) to hell is because they are ENEMIES of God, and SINNED against their Creator.

And yes, we all have loved ones who won't be saved.
That's not our call, it's God's.
God has no obligation to save all our (or any of) our loved ones.
God had no obligation to save US.



I've said it once, and I'll say it again... When God finally forced me to admit to myself that "Calvinism" is true, and I finally embraced it....

God became a million times more holy in my eyes.
And my sins became a million times more wretched than I realized.
And I knew how MUCH I deserved hell.
And God's love became a MILLION times greater than I had ever imagined.

"Amazing love!
How can it be?
That you, my King, should die for me?"
Click to expand...
This is still the message Paul preached to the unconverted Corinthians

1 Corinthians 15:1–3 (ESV) — 1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
 
Theo1689 said:
The Corinthian believers were unconverted?
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At one time yes

And Paul had preached to them

1 Corinthians 15:1–3 (ESV) — 1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
 
Theo1689 said:
The Bible never TEACHES us to go around telling everyone, "Jesus died for YOU!!!!!"
Why are YOU trying to change the gospel?
Click to expand...

Rom 5:6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost."

1John 2:2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1John 4:10This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

Christ came to seek, die for, and save the ungodly, the lost, those still sinners. That is every single individual on earth! For all have sinned and fall short, all have gone astray,

To preach to a gathering that God showed his love to those who were yet enemies, sinners, is to say to each member of that audience who are yet sinners that God loved them by sending Christ to die for the lost, the ungodly, and sinners.


Doug
 
TibiasDad said:
Rom 5:6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost."

1John 2:2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1John 4:10This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

Christ came to seek, die for, and save the ungodly, the lost, those still sinners. That is every single individual on earth! For all have sinned and fall short, all have gone astray,

To preach to a gathering that God showed his love to those who were yet enemies, sinners, is to say to each member of that audience who are yet sinners that God loved them by sending Christ to die for the lost, the ungodly, and sinners.


Doug
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Amen brother preach/teach the truth !!!
 
Theo1689 said:
"Amazing love!
How can it be?
That you, my King, should die for me?"
Click to expand...
How ironic that the Calvinist quotes the Wesley hymn as an expression of what being a theological Calvinist has caused him to realize! How on earth did Charles Wesley come to such profundity without believing in Calvinism?

Doug
 
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