The Value of Evangelism in Reform Theology

fltom

Well-known member
That leaves out all the deaf who were told the word of God but never had faith. Hearing is a gift of God.

Proverbs 20
12 The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them.

In your mind is everyone on earth saved because someone told them to believe or read the Bible verses to them?
No everyone is not saved

God saves those that believe

1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV 1900) — 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

not everyone does
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
I've reported you for breaking the rules.
My name is not "Janice".
And this is a public discussion forum, not a private email, so I'm perfectly welcome to respond to ANY post I choose.

And I will not disrespect you, Doug, as you have disrespected me.
Shameful.

I will however respectfully suggest you follow your own advice from your signature, "dare to be gracious". Referring to me as "Janice" Is anything BUT "gracious". Pray on it.

Thank you for your opinion.

Doug
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
But he would not preach an untruth. Christ died for all
But (as we both know) "All" won't be willing to die to themselves and LIVE in Him, as born again Christians do, and so make Jesus' death of no value to themselves, by their own choice.

Calvinism, of course, essentially eliminates any "CHOICE" at all. If you're "Elect", ("U") you'll become Born Again, ("I") and persevere ("P")till you croak, and you have no say in the matter at all. If You're NOT "Elect", then you're nothing but firewood, born to BURN, and you have no choice, since the Calvinist Christ didn't "Die for you" ("L").
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
No everyone is not saved

God saves those that believe
The devils "believe" but aren't "saved"
1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV 1900) — 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

not everyone does
MOST apparently won't (Mat 7:14). The Visible churches are a mixture of WHEAT (Born Again Christians), and TARES (religious folks with "beliefs" and but no FAITH, or Born Again experience) to varying percentage by volume.

Eph 2: 8,9 indicates that the FAITH to be Born again is gifted by God. It occurs when a person is CONVICTED by the Holy Spirit of their SIN, and repents/surrenders to God. "Belief" (mental assent) doesn't get 'er done - FAITH (Heb 11:1) does, and it's Gifted by God - Conviction of SIN being the beginning of it, and Repentance being the human reaction to the Conviction.
 
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fltom

Well-known member
The devils "believe" but aren't "saved"

MOST apparently won't (Mat 7:14). The Visible churches are a mixture of WHEAT (Born Again Christians), and TARES (religious folks with "beliefs" and but no FAITH, or Born Again experience) to varying percentage by volume.

Eph 2: 8,9 indicates that the FAITH to be Born again is gifted by God. It occurs when a person is CONVICTED by the Holy Spirit of their SIN, and repents/surrenders to God. "Belief" (mental assent) doesn't get 'er done - FAITH (Heb 11:1) does, and it's Gifted by God - Conviction of SIN being the beginning of it, and Repentance being the human reaction to the Conviction.
No actually Eph 2:8 does not indicate faith is a gift

The grammar makes it clear the gift is salvation

Faith is a response to the truth

were it not so these would make no sense

Men needed to be hardened so they could not believe

John 12:40 —KJV
“He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.”



had men not hardened themselves they could have believed

Acts 28:27 —KJV
“For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”


Were faith the gift that Calvinists envision this would be impossible as

Nothing could interfere with the transmission of faith

Matthew 13:18–22 (KJV 1900) — 18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. 19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. 20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. 22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.




Jesus spoke to men in parables to prevent their understanding

Matt. 13:10–14 —KJV
“And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:”

fifth Jesus found it necessary to his identity from men
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Then there is the systematic theology that’s right and the one that’s wrong . As the remonstrance and Dort proves .
I would say there is only one Systematic Theology. Differences could be attributed to stopping short; or going too far. Stopping short can be seen in leaving out John 3:16 or John 6:24. I know both sides say they don't leave anything out, but that can be put to the test. Going too far could be seen in applying Verses to a topic they do not belong to; for instance, John 1:1-2 belong to Christology instead of to Soteriology. I'm not saying this misapplication is going on here...

Therefore, regarding Soteriology, John 6:44 belongs in All of it's Doctrines...
 
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ReverendRV

Well-known member
Catholics have truth mixed with error to as do many other religions . It’s why I reject them . If one just sticks with the Bible instead of religions named after men they would be much closer to knowing the truth .
Roman Catholicism is an example of a system of Theology that goes too far; including alien sources to their Systematic that do not belong. This is why there is only one True Systematic Theology...
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Except who is right Calvin or Arminius on John 6:44. It’s not a slam dunk for your side since it’s debatable as we are seeing here on some threads .

A good systematic theology is where both sides agree on the essentials and not their doctrinal positions on tulip or the 5 articles . In each example above there is bias. So bias in this case disproves “ good “ systematic theology .
I would say it's a Slam Dunk on 6:44 because Arminians and Calvinists agree on it's Meaning; right? No one can come to Christ unless God the Father Efficaciously Works in their lives first. We may quibble (or wage War) over the English Translation of it's Greek wording; but not over it's Meaning; it's why you embrace Total Depravity...

So isn't it true that John 6:44 means no one can come to Christ without the Father prevening? Don't you agree with this, and as an Arminian then go on record that it's is the True Systematic Theology?
 
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ReverendRV

Well-known member
Read the threads there are 100’s of examples . Divine meticulous determinism and double predestination are just two examples . Every non Calvinists on the forum opposes them , dislikes them and some hate those doctrines .
You know what Theo is going to say about that ;)

We can ask Civic, he kept a lot of Seth's quotes...
 

Janice Bower

Well-known member
I'm not into the belief that God is the sole active agent in salvation. Or that only saving grace given to the elect to regenerate them and to give them new birth is irresistible and effectual. Thats to much like coercion to me. The dragging, kicking and screaming scenario
There is no dragging, kicking, and screaming. There is a remakable change that I couldn't cause to happen to my unbelieving siblings. Only God can bring a person to faith. Christians can plant seeds. Not all seeds take root and grow.


The Holy Spirit does not overwhelm and force the person to repent and believe; rather, the Holy Spirit transforms the person’s heart so that they want to repent and believe.
I'm a Calvinist. I was not forced to believe.


They choose to believe and that decision to believe is the most important choice we ever make. It shapes all our other decisions. God does not compel us to believe any more than He compels us to keep any commandments, despite His perfect desire to have us come to Him.
Perhaps He compelled Jonah to do His will. Hallelujah!

God gave us His word to inform us of truth. He changes our hearts so that our desire is to please HIm. We read His word because we love Him and want to do His will.

Thy word have I hid in mine heart that I might not sin against thee.
 

Janice Bower

Well-known member
Hello Janice, it’s nice to meet you. This said, I’m not sure what you’re trying to tell me?

Doug
Is something unclear with my English?
No everyone is not saved

God saves those that believe

1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV 1900) — 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

not everyone does
Exactly my point: preaching doesn't grant everyone faith. God gave me faith ---only one of six children. I turned on Billy Graham when my mother was at work. I just wanted to hear what he was saying. My older sister walked over and shut off the TV. She said, "Mother doesn't want you to watch that!" Really? I wasn't a Christian. Why was my mother against it? Mother had told me that we could each decide what to believe when we became adults. She didn't tell me that Billy Graham ws a bad guy.
 

Howie

Well-known member
Then you have no gospel, you only have a potential message of good news and hope because it may or may not for the one hearing it.
The same goes for you.

It also says that you are not really interested in the soul you are speaking with, because you don't know if they are Elect or not, but you are just doing what you are told to do.
The same goes for you.

There is no deep, personal investment like Paul does for his fellow Israelites in Rom 9. If you cannot believe that I can certainly be saved, that God truly wants to save everyone you speak to,
"So to speak." All of your statements, so far, are based primarily on your position.

then you cannot honestly say you have good news to bring to their ears. It may or may not be that I can be saved!
Same is true for you.

You have NO MORE IDEA who GoD is going to save than you say a Calvinist has ... 😏
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
You have NO MORE IDEA who GoD is going to save than you say a Calvinist has ... 😏

Correction: I know exactly who God will save, all who believe!

I do not know who will believe, but I know that everyone who hears the gospel is capable of believing, is not prohibited by God from believing, and can come to an understanding of the gospel and will make a decision about Christ, one way or another!

My message is good news to everyone who hears, especially to those who believe! You cannot say this, because you know that most, if not all those hearing are divinely incapable of believing, you just don't know the specifics of who's who!

If your Calvinistic gospel message is correct, why don't you stop mincing words and say "Christ only died for the few, those God has chosen, elected to save; are others have no hope"? Why not say, "God may be giving belief to some of you today; if you believe that you are one of these divinely elected people, you will irresistibility know it's a deal you can't refuse!"?


Doug
 
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