The Value of Evangelism in Reform Theology

Predestined

Well-known member
Correction: I know exactly who God will save, all who believe!

I do not know who will believe, but I know that everyone who hears the gospel is capable of believing, is not prohibited by God from believing, and can come to an understanding of the gospel and will make a decision about Christ, one way or another!

My message is good news to everyone who hears, especially to those who believe! You cannot say this, because you know that most, if not all those hearing are divinely incapable of believing, you just don't know the specifics of who's who!

If your Calvinistic gospel message is correct, why don't you stop mincing words and say "Christ only died for the few, those God has chosen, elected to save; are others have no hope"? Why not say, "God may be giving belief to some of you today; if you believe that you are one of these divinely elected people, you will irresistibility know it's a deal you can't refuse!"?


Doug
They can't do that because they use carefully crafted rhetoric to disguise their position. In fact, it almost seems as though they intentionally hide their Calvinistic inclinations until after they’ve lured you in with bits of the truth, and then they beguile you with their obtuse wordsmithing. But it doesn’t take a trained eye to easily spot the error of their Calvinistic doctrine, it bleeds through their posts.
 

Slyzr

Well-known member
And what would make you (as an unregenerate human) think that ANYTHING in the Bible constitutes "Truth"???

So no one in the bible was born?

Had any kids .....

Experience troubles etcetera?

Paul tended to overstate his case at times. (as you are here)

Other times he brought his case right back to earth. Appealing to the natural understanding.

IMO ..... we are discussing, those that were explaining, an end of an age.

For an improvment .....

Not that we are complete idiots; without understanding.
 
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SovereignGrace

Well-known member
They can't do that because they use carefully crafted rhetoric to disguise their position. In fact, it almost seems as though they intentionally hide their Calvinistic inclinations until after they’ve lured you in with bits of the truth, and then they beguile you with their obtuse wordsmithing. But it doesn’t take a trained eye to easily spot the error of their Calvinistic doctrine, it bleeds through their posts.
All this coming from someone with the username “Predestined”.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
My message is good news to everyone who hears, especially to those who believe! You cannot say this,

Yes, we most certainly CAN say the same thing, because we have more than a selfish message to give. Please do NOT presume to speak for us, as an opportunity to spread worthless propaganda designed to mud-sling.

If your Calvinistic gospel message is correct, why don't you stop mincing words and say "Christ only died for the few, those God has chosen, elected to save; are others have no hope"? Why not say, "God may be giving belief to some of you today; if you believe that you are one of these divinely elected people, you will irresistibility know it's a deal you can't refuse!"?

Two can play at that game...

If your Arminian gospel is correct (newsflash: it's not), why don't YOU stop mincing words and say, "God loves everyone, but doesn't do all He can to save everyone. He leaves the most crucial part to sinful man, even though He could have ENSURED everyone's salvation if He truly wanted to, but He didn't want to. He was fully ready to forgive (and according to some, HAS forgiven) the worst murders, rapes, arsons, adulteries, grand thefts, and tortures, but if you can't find it in yourself to believe in God, He won't do anything to stop your eternal fate in hell. But remember, even though you will spend eternity in hell, God still 'loves' you!"
 

Howie

Well-known member
Correction: I know exactly who God will save, all who believe!
But you have NO IDEA WHO THEY ARE!!!
I do not know who will believe, but I know that everyone who hears the gospel is capable of believing,
You don't know that!

is not prohibited by God from believing,
You don't know that!

and can come to an understanding of the gospel and will make a decision about Christ, one way or another!
You don't know that!

My message is good news to everyone who hears
You don't know that!

especially to those who believe!
We both know that!

You cannot say this, because you know that most, if not all those hearing are divinely incapable of believing, you just don't know the specifics of who's who!
The same is true of your position!

If your Calvinistic gospel message is correct, why don't you stop mincing words and say "Christ only died for the few, those God has chosen, elected to save; are others have no hope"?
Christ died for sinners!! Prove me wrong!!

Why not say, "God may be giving belief to some of you today; if you believe that you are one of these divinely elected people, you will irresistibility know it's a deal you can't refuse!"?
LOL!! You should say the same thing -- maybe God will save you, maybe He won't!!

You don't know who God is going to save, but you do know, HE ISN'T GOING TO SAVE EVERYONE!!!!!!!

ISN'T THAT RIGHT????????

WE BOTH HAVE THE SAME INFO!!!

OH NO!!! YOU'RE A CALVINIST!! 😏
 
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Slyzr

Well-known member
Yes, we most certainly CAN say the same thing, because we have more than a selfish message to give. Please do NOT presume to speak for us, as an opportunity to spread worthless propaganda designed to mud-sling.



Two can play at that game...

If your Arminian gospel is correct (newsflash: it's not), why don't YOU stop mincing words and say, "God loves everyone, but doesn't do all He can to save everyone. He leaves the most crucial part to sinful man, even though He could have ENSURED everyone's salvation if He truly wanted to, but He didn't want to. He was fully ready to forgive (and according to some, HAS forgiven) the worst murders, rapes, arsons, adulteries, grand thefts, and tortures, but if you can't find it in yourself to believe in God, He won't do anything to stop your eternal fate in hell. But remember, even though you will spend eternity in hell, God still 'loves' you!"

So we can never be, but by Calvinsit doctrine?

How is that tenable.

At least Arminians tend toward they can be.

File errors as you want, but I can gurantee you.

Though we are ..... we are NOT perfect.
 
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TibiasDad

Well-known member
Two can play at that game...
I thought you didn't play games...
If your Arminian gospel is correct (newsflash: it's not), why don't YOU stop mincing words and say, "God loves everyone,
I do say that! There is no one beyond the love of God who still has breath.

but doesn't do all He can to save everyone.
He doesn't have to do anything, so the argument is "moo...like what a cow says! It doesn't mean anything!" (Paraphrase of Joey, from Friends) So anything he has done is sufficient in his purposes.

He leaves the most crucial part to sinful man

The most crucial part was the Cross!
, even though He could have ENSURED everyone's salvation if He truly wanted to

The same holds for you, Theo! Your scenario is far worse in my opinion: God could have chosen to save all of us, but didn't, so I guess both our Gods are insufficient in some way if your premise is true!

, but He didn't want to.
He is not willing that anyone be lost!

He was fully ready to forgive (and according to some, HAS forgiven) the worst murders, rapes, arsons, adulteries, grand thefts, and tortures, but if you can't find it in yourself to believe in God, He won't do anything to stop your eternal fate in hell. But remember, even though you will spend eternity in hell, God still 'loves' you!

Assuming you have family who are not believers, would you ever stop loving them even if they didn't follow your path? (Applying what we would do if our children were blind, and walking toward a cliff, as you have in the past, won't work! So save Carms bandwidth.)


Doug
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
I thought you didn't play games...

I guess Prov. 26 isn't found in your Bible?

I do say that! There is no one beyond the love of God who still has breath.

Thank you for ripping my quote out of context?
Of course, it's all that Arminians are able to do.

The same holds for you, Theo! Your scenario is far worse in my opinion:

No, YOUR scenario is far worse.
But worse than that, your scenario is anti-Biblical.

God could have chosen to save all of us, but didn't, so I guess both our Gods are insufficient in some way if your premise is true!

Correct.
Calvinists have been saying this forever.
BOTH viewpoints limit the atonement.
But Calvinism agrees with God.

He is not willing that anyone be lost!

Ripped out of context.
2 Pet. 3:9 is ONLY speaking of the "beloved" (v.8), and the "us-ward" (v.9).
It is not "universal".
You need to stop IGNORING that fact.

Assuming you have family who are not believers, would you ever stop loving them even if they didn't follow your path? (Applying what we would do if our children were blind, and walking toward a cliff, as you have in the past, won't work! So save Carms bandwidth.)

Irrelevant question.
I'm an emotional creature, so of course I'm going to love them.
My dad is probably going to die in the next 10 years, and he is an unbeliever.
My brother is gay, and rejected Christianity because of his lifestyle.

But that doesn't negate what the Bible teaches.
And God has a million times more love (most certainly an understatement) than I have.
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Ripped out of context.
2 Pet. 3:9 is ONLY speaking of the "beloved" (v.8), and the "us-ward" (v.9).
It is not "universal".
You need to stop IGNORING that fact.
Speaking of and speaking to are not the same principle. He is speaking to the church, but speaking of those who scoff at what they perceive to be God's tardiness. To the church he writes that God's tardiness is really patience, because "our Lord’s patience means salvation" (vs 14), not theirs, which is already accomplished, but for those who are and will be a offers if the Lord continues to tarry.

God does not need to be patient with the believers to whom he writes, but with those who are yet scoffers and believers! There is a similar dynamic in the account of the flood "in the delay of a hundred and twenty years between the first prophetic warning of the coming judgment and the actual deluge, was manifested now in the interval, longer than the first disciples had anticipated, between the first and the second comings of the Christ." (See Cambridge on 2 Pet 3:9) Peter spoke of this in 1 Pet 3, in which this being patient is also in the context of dealing with those outside of belief.

You are, in my humble opinion, forcing your eisegetic desires upon the text and creating a false hermeneutical principle to support your thinking. Context and logic does not make such an unwarranted leap. Again, writing to and writing about are not necessarily concurrent in purpose or meaning.
Irrelevant question.
I'm an emotional creature, so of course I'm going to love them.
To be love is to be emotional. God is not ruled by his emotions, but he is not void of them, and it is from them that we inherit our emotional capacities.

My dad is probably going to die in the next 10 years, and he is an unbeliever.
I just lost my father on June 8, but he was, and is, a believer.

My brother is gay, and rejected Christianity because of his lifestyle.
My brother is as well. The prodigal's father did not stop him from leaving, nor did he cease loving him and watching for his return. Like the scoffers in 2 Pet 3, they, our brothers, have chosen to forget and walk away from the truths they know.

But that doesn't negate what the Bible teaches.
Your right, it confirms it!

And God has a million times more love (most certainly an understatement) than I have
God's perfection of and capacity for love does not mean that he is not like us, but rather that we are not like him in quality or quantity. God possesses the same types of affects or characteristics as we, but they are faultless in expression and limitless in scope.


Doug
 

fltom

Well-known member
Is something unclear with my English?

Exactly my point: preaching doesn't grant everyone faith. God gave me faith ---only one of six children. I turned on Billy Graham when my mother was at work. I just wanted to hear what he was saying. My older sister walked over and shut off the TV. She said, "Mother doesn't want you to watch that!" Really? I wasn't a Christian. Why was my mother against it? Mother had told me that we could each decide what to believe when we became adults. She didn't tell me that Billy Graham ws a bad guy.
not everyone but those who do are saved

You view makes no sense in the light of scripture

Men needed to be hardened so they could not believe

John 12:40 —KJV
“He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.”

had men not hardened themselves they could have believed

Acts 28:27 —KJV
“For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

Jesus spoke to men in parables to prevent their understanding

Matt. 13:10–14 —KJV
“And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:”

If faith were a gift and men unable to believe without being given the gift how is it some believe termporarily?
 
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