The Value of Evangelism in Reform Theology

brightfame52 said:
I know what I said and it's no contradiction except in your mind
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I will leave that determination to the readers

Brightfame1

God hates all workers of iniquity

Brightfame2

God does not hate all sinners but loves some
 
TomFL said:
I will leave that determination to the readers

Brightfame1

God hates all workers of iniquity

Brightfame2

God does not hate all sinners but loves some
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That's fine. God hates all the workers of iniquity Ps 5:5 and some sinners God loves Rom 5:8
 
TibiasDad said:
In the prologue of the book Deconstructing Calvinism by Hudson Smelley, is found this statement:

Calvinism completely compasses God's redemptive plan and teaches that God saves a small percentage of humanity based on His elective determination before creation and passes over the rest. Since God's redemptive plan excludes most people, there is no basis for us to tell a lost person that God loves them, that Jesus died for them, that they should believe in Christ for salvation, or that there is hope beyond the grave. If the lost person is not elect, we would be misleading them if we said any of those things. Indeed, it is difficult to see how we could make any honest gospel presentation knowing most people are by God's purposes not savable. Not only that, since salvation hangs on God's elective determination before creation and not on a present decision for Christ, we must make this TULIP reality personal. We must come to grips with the fact that many of those we know, and perhaps some of those closest to us, have no possibility of being reconciled to God because they are not elect.

What caught my eye is the idea that "there is no basis for us to tell a lost person that God loves them, that Jesus died for them, that they should believe in Christ for salvation, or that there is hope beyond the grave. If the lost person is not elect, we would be misleading them if we said any of those things."

I had always thought the Calvinistic evangelism was like searching for the proverbial needle in a haystack,, the rare Elect person in the mass of reprobates, but had never thought of the effect of the presentation of the gospel to those who would never be able to experience it. Smelley terms it "misleading" them to think that they might be savable, when in fact, there isn't a sliver of hope that this would happen.

What are your thoughts, either pro or con to Smelley's thought?
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Smelly sounds like a slanderous fool.
 
Theo1689 said:
But thank for quoting the entry, so that the poster who originally made the claim can actually see that it does NOT say, "(but not exclusively)".
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"The poster who originally made the claim" was stating the essence of BDAG, not quoting directly, thus no quotation marks. The parenthetical clause, however, by definition, is "the poster's" accentuation of the fact that "especially" does not eliminate unbelievers from the whole of mankind, but only says that the fact God loves is obviously and overtly true for those who actually believe and become a child of God. "Especially", does not mean only or exclusively.

The poster, aka, Doug
 
TibiasDad said:
"The poster who originally made the claim" was stating the essence of BDAG, not quoting directly, thus no quotation marks. The parenthetical clause, however, by definition, is "the poster's" accentuation of the fact that "especially" does not eliminate unbelievers from the whole of mankind, but only says that the fact God loves is obviously and overtly true for those who actually believe and become a child of God. "Especially", does not mean only or exclusively.

The poster, aka, Doug
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Yes quite true Doug

but I suspect Theo knows that
 
TomFL said:
Sorry previous to salvation all have worked iniquity
So you believe God loved no one ?

The issue comes down to how one defines the characteristic of love.

According to Paul, “love does not seek its own,” and thus it is best described as “self-sacrificial” rather than “self-serving” (1 Cor. 13:5). As Jesus taught, “Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.” It seems safe to say that love at its very root is self-sacrificial. Anything less than that should not be called “love.” One may refer to “kindness” or “care” in reflection of some common provisions for humanity, but unless it reaches the level of self-sacrifice it does not seem to meet the biblical definition of true love.

Given that biblical definition of love as “self-sacrifice,” let us consider Christ’s command to love our enemies. Is this an expectation Christ himself is unwilling to fulfill? As we asked in the beginning, is He being hypocritical in this command? Of course not. The very reason He told His followers to love their enemies is “in order that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven…” (Matt. 5:45).

The meaning is undeniable. We are to love our enemies because God loves His enemies. He loves both “the righteous and the unrighteous” in exactly the same way we are told to love our enemies. The greatest commandment instructs us to “love our neighbor as ourselves” (Lev. 19:18; Matt. 22:37-38). “And who is our neighbor?” (Lk. 10:29). The pagan Samaritans, who were detested as enemies of God.
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Amen and amen!

Doug
 
TomFL said:
Once again sacrifical concerning for others is the characteristic of love

God loves his enemies and commands us to do likewise
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Certainly God loves his enemies (ie. us).
And we are to love our enemies, in the same way.

But that does not mean, require, or obligate God to love ALL of His enemies.
And Ps. 5:5 is proof that He DOESN'T love all His enemies.

We do not get that same privilege, because we are not God.
 
TomFL said:
Did you not just contradict your own verse
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No, he didn't.

Psalm 5:5 (ESV)
5 The boastful shall not stand before your eyes;
you hate all evildoers.
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And that's the verse YOU deny and constantly run away from.
So YOU are the one with the "contradictory doctrine".

False doctrine always leads to contradiction
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Yep, and that's why your posts always lead to contradicting the Bible.
You might want to stop doing that.... Just sayin'.
 
Theo1689 said:
No, he didn't.



And that's the verse YOU deny and constantly run away from.
So YOU are the one with the "contradictory doctrine".



Yep, and that's why your posts always lead to contradicting the Bible.
You might want to stop doing that.... Just sayin'.
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Sorry He stated God hates all workers of iniquity

and he stated God loves some sinner (who in fact workers of inquity)

That is a contradiction

and you are in denial - just saying
 
TomFL said:
You cannot deny you have God loving and sending Christ to die for those your verse Psa 5:5 stated he hated
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We can deny that God sent Christ to die for those in Ps. 5:5, since the Bible never teaches any such thing. It is only your faulty rationalizations that put 2 and 2 together to make 17.

Obviously your understanding is defective
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You compare our beliefs with your faulty theology.
Which is why you falsely claim our understanding is "defective".

We compare our beliefs to Scripture.
And that makes our beliefs accurate and Biblical.

Nor can you deny God sent Christ to save the world
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We merely recognize that you don't correctly understand what "kosmos" means.
 
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