The vulnerable underbelly of Christadelphianism

John t

Super Member
John t said:

Your statement is akin to letting a person with no math beyond high school math do your job, taking the position that taking courses in statistics is irrelevant to do a Chi Square analysis or an ANOVA. It defies common sense, yet that is essentially the position you are taking with En Hakkor and me.
Why would you think a Chi Square Analysis or an ANOVA is difficult for those without math beyond high school? The steps are formulaic, and there are a multitude of online resources to walk somebody through it. It isn't like they are inventing the whole science of population testing, they are simply applying a tool, one that is well known, and built into commonly available spreadsheet

Simple. I learned how to do them on a hand-held calculator in grad school, and using SPSS. I will grant you that there may be some people not in grad school who may have the calculus knowledge of how to do them, but they are few and far between. That misses the point of my post, and is a derail.

That Jonathan and I are trained in both Hebrew and Koine Greek should give you comfort, even though what we post does not agree with (cough cough) Christadelphian theology

Uniformly, each of us stated that one verse under discussion has these words, and not those "Christadelphian words" such as you propose for an "alternative reaality. Our communications to y'all about that have been uniformly in agreement about what the words state. We explained the facts of the words, and their syntax to y'all. The words that Paul are immutable; they cannot be changed, and they truthfully state what God wanted Paul to write.

On the other hand, all the Christafelphians here tried to "wiggle out from the grammar, the syntax and the lexicon definitions". We deal with truth, but y'all are trying to make your church's make believe "theology" into propositional truth but present no evidence for thatt, excepting to do nay-saying.. It will never be your way, and that is why your efforts will continue to miserably fail. Simply put, your church holds no truth, and y'all have made it abundantly clear to all the readers here.
 

TrevorL

Active member
I have not addressed this post to Jonathan (En Hakkore) or John t as it is mainly an expansion of my previous post #120, the last post on page 6. Jonathan may yet respond to that post, but he did state that he wanted to disengage. I am not interested in responding to the latest post by John t #121 above. At first I was going to quote his last paragraph in the post above, but I decided that this does not need a response, and other readers can assess whether what he says is substantial or not.
Another important allusion, succinct summary and exposition of Psalm 8 is Matthew 11:20-25, but I am not sure if you are willing to accept this record. This again is expounding Psalm 8 with regard to the New Creation in Christ.
The above is my comment from post #120, and I would like to briefly comment on this as it is not only relevant to a correct understanding of Psalm 8, but it also has a bearing on a correct understanding of 1 Corinthians 8:6. Again, I am not sure if Jonathan accepts that Jesus spoke these words and that Matthew correctly recorded these words for our benefit. To me the veracity of this is evident from what it actually says, as it is one of the most profound portions of Scripture and a great comfort for those that trust in these words and respond to this call of Jesus.

Matthew 11:25–30 (KJV): 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Matthew 11:25-26: This is a beautiful summary of Psalm 8:1-3:
Psalm 8:1–3 (KJV): 1 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. 2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger. 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
Jesus equates Psalm 8:1 "O Yahweh our Lord" who is then described in Psalm 8:1,3 as the Creator of heaven and earth and is given praise with the succinct statement of Matthew 11:25 "I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth". This identifies the One God, Yahweh, God the Father, the father of our Lord Jesus Christ as the Creator and Ruler of heaven and earth. This has a bearing on 1 Corinthians 8:6 and the "all things" mentioned there.

Matthew 11:25-26 then speaks of "babes" and this is a quotation or allusion to Psalm 8:2 "babes and sucklings" who would eventually overcome the enemies of Yahweh. These babes are in contrast to the proud, indifferent individuals of the Galilean cities, where most of the miracles of Jesus were performed, and who were now rejecting Jesus and his teaching. These "babes" including the Apostles and disciples were thus the new creation, while those whose hearts were hardened would eventually perish.

Matthew 11:27: This is an interesting and enlightening statement. It reveals how that God the Father, the Creator and Lord of heaven and earth was in the process of making Jesus to be "Lord". This authority and power and ability was being transferred to Jesus, so that he becomes the "Lord" of 1 Corinthians 8:6, the Lord now over the Edenic Creation and the New Creation.

Matthew 11:28-30: This profound portion of Scripture and the simple and clear call for us to come to Jesus speaks for itself. This is part of the process and the means whereby the New Creation is developed.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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civic

Well-known member
Setting aside the propaganda, let's get to the meat of the exposition. The one verse.

Let's read the verses in context, because as one person on this board likes to point out: "EVERY verse ripped from its context is a pretext, without exception." And the poster wants to rip the verse out of its context and is likewise not an exception.

1 Cor 8
4 So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.” 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.


Verse 4 explains to the Corinthians that "there is no God but one"
Verse 6a explains that the Father is that one God, and is the one from whom all things came
Verse 6b explains that Jesus is not that one God, but rather our one lord, and it is through him that all things come, and through him we live.

Seems pretty clear to me. So I ask, how does an intelligent person with reading comprehension come to the idea that Paul calls both Jesus Christ and God "fully divine"? The words "fully divine" are absent from the passage, the chapter, and the bible (depending on translation).


The passage goes on. First it explains how our relationship to the one God is impacted by food:

7 But not everyone possesses this knowledge. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat sacrificial food they think of it as having been sacrificed to a god, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. 8 But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.


Then it explains how we live through the one Lord

9 Be careful, however, that the exercise of your rights does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if someone with a weak conscience sees you, with all your knowledge, eating in an idol’s temple, won’t that person be emboldened to eat what is sacrificed to idols? 11 So this weak brother or sister, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12 When you sin against them in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother or sister to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause them to fall.


Paul, makes things clear. There is one God, the Father. There is one lord among many lords (he's the lord of lords you see). What he does not say, nor explain in any way is that "Jesus Christ and God, the Father fully divine".


This particular Christadelphian does have a soft underbelly though :)
Except you left out the most important part that of Creation through the Son. Only God existed before creation. Your house of cards just fell in one swoop with your pet verse . Only One Who is Lord/ God can create, no exceptions.

hope this helps !!!
 

TrevorL

Active member
Greetings civic,
Except you left out the most important part that of Creation through the Son. Only God existed before creation. Your house of cards just fell in one swoop with your pet verse . Only One Who is Lord/ God can create, no exceptions.
I believe that Paul has Psalm 8 in mind which clearly teaches that the One God, Yahweh, God the Father is the Creator, Matthew 11:25, but that he has created with Jesus, the Son of God in mind, who was MADE a little lower than the Angels, through his birth as the Son of God, with God the Father as his father and Mary his mother, Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35, John 1:14, the only begotten of the Father, then exalted to honour and glory.
I looked up my Enhanced Strongs, and it almost allows my view, but I cannot demand that this is the correct view as dia can be a direct agent.
Enhanced Strong's: 1223 διά [dia /dee·ah/] prep. A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; TDNT 2:65; TDNTA 149; GK 1328; 647 occurrences; AV translates as “by” 241 times, “through” 88 times, “with” 16 times, “for” 58 times, “for … sake” 47 times, “therefore + 5124” 44 times, “for this cause + 5124” 14 times, “because” 53 times, and translated miscellaneously 86 times. 1 through. 1A of place. 1A1 with. 1A2 in. 1B of time. 1B1 throughout. 1B2 during. 1C of means. 1C1 by. 1C2 by the means of. 2 through. 2A the ground or reason by which something is or is not done. 2A1 by reason of. 2A2 on account of. 2A3 because of for this reason. 2A4 therefore. 2A5 on this account.
Also as previously discussed Jesus is Lord because he has been exalted to this position, consider Psalm 110:1 which is parallel to 1 Corinthians 8:6, God and Lord, as it has the One God, Yahweh and David's Lord and consider Peter's exposition of Psalm 110:1 in Acts 2:29-36. Jesus is not the "Lord" from eternity, but exalted to become Lord over God, the Father's creation. Jesus is the Son of Man, Adam of Psalm 8.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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John t

Super Member
Also as previously discussed Jesus is Lord because he has been exalted to this position,
Balderdash, and Mormon theology as well.

For sure it is in Mormonism, but for sure, it cannot be found in the Bible in context and translated correctly.
 

TrevorL

Active member
Greetings again John t,
Also as previously discussed Jesus is Lord because he has been exalted to this position,
Balderdash, and Mormon theology as well. For sure it is in Mormonism, but for sure, it cannot be found in the Bible in context and translated correctly.
Why use expletives and shallow name calling or labeling. We can stand by our own beliefs. Christadelphians have had disagreement with Mormons from the very beginning of their appearance to this day. We reject the Book of Mormon and their many wrong teachings. Mormonism is an unusual American phenomena, and we rarely see any Mormon missionaries and their bicycles in Australia these days.

Perhaps you can give a better translation of the following two passages, and even write it in Greek at, even Koine Greek at first if this calms your nerves, but please give me an English translation.
Acts 2:29–36 (KJV): 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Philippians 2:5–11 (KJV): 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Please note that all of this is to the glory of the One God. the Father, not to the Trinity or God the Son.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

John t

Super Member
Why use expletives and shallow name calling or labeling.
That is a FALSE ACCUSATION! I did not call you names in that post.
We reject the Book of Mormon and their many wrong teachings.

We can stand by our own beliefs
You have not done so with neither En Hakkor nor myself. Claiming that is contrary to reality, (Is "balderdash" a better word? Look it up to be sure.)

Perhaps you can give a better translation of the following two passages, and even write it in Greek at, even Koine Greek at first if this calms your nerves, but please give me an English translation.

You have not done so in the past, which Jonathan and I both noted. Why should we invest our time on a poster who falsely claims something he never did, nor, by his own admission does not have the proper training to do exegesis of anything else.

We reject the Book of Mormon and their many wrong teachings.

Your post contained a crucial Mormon teaching. I merely identified it, and properly labeled it. Your "problem with that" is not me; rather it is in what you posted.
 

TrevorL

Active member
Greetings again John t,
I did not call you names in that post.
Nothing here to respond to. You labeled our belief as Mormon theology. I could list a few Mormon ideas that you are closer to, than us. You have not considered the Scriptures that I quoted concerning Jesus being exalted to "Lord", but have used your favourite expletive again, and you seem to have forgotten that you used it in your previous post. You seem to hide behind Jonathan (En Hakkore) who does not accept the authenticity and teaching and inspiration of the Scriptures. Is that a measure of your scholarship also.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

John t

Super Member
Nothing here to respond to. You labeled our belief as Mormon theology.

No, I ABSOLUTELY DID NOT!

Correctly, I stated that "exaltation" is a part of Mormonism. Remember this?
TrevorL said:
Also as previously discussed Jesus is Lord because he has been exalted to this position,

Your words are YOUR problem, not mine
Here is proof of what I stated, ( and there is no new translation needed)

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-47-exaltation?lang=eng
This is exaltation. If we prove faithful to the Lord, we will live in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom of heaven. We will become exalted, to live with our Heavenly Father in eternal families. Exaltation is the greatest gift that Heavenly Father can give His children (see D&C 14:7).​

Smith wrote that before 1841

You must see that the LDS believe that their jesus became god because he obeyed "god the father" and was rewarded by exaltation into deity.
but have used your favourite expletive again,
Incredible! You call the word "exegesis" an expletive. Do you know the meaning of that word? I gave you a link so you could tap on it, and learn its meaning. To your loss, you didn't. Therefore, you compound your errors.
You seem to hide behind Jonathan (En Hakkore) who does not accept the authenticity and teaching and inspiration of the Scriptures. Is that a measure of your scholarship also.
Your derailing ad hominems above are patently obvious; I will NOT be drawn into your game-playing of "Let's you and him fight" I will say only that the problematic accusations you raise reveal your abject refusal to discuss things rationally, and trying to pit En Hakkor and me against each other is pathetic.

You demonstrate to all other lurkers that Christadelphianism is impossible to defend by using Bible texts in context. thus, you continue to expose the vulnerable underbelly of your religion. Thank you for doing that in a much better way than I could do.
 

TrevorL

Active member
Greetings again John t,
Correctly, I stated that "exaltation" is a part of Mormonism.
I quoted previously two passages that teach that Jesus has been exalted to being "Lord", but you have not responded to this. We do not claim that Jesus has been exalted to being "God", and this idea that Jesus has been exalted to be "God" is, as you state, the Mormon doctrine. Jesus is not God, as there is only one God, Yahweh, God the Father. Our Lord Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God. He is the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection Romans 1:1-4.

The following is what I stated:
Perhaps you can give a better translation of the following two passages, and even write it in Greek, even Koine Greek at first if this calms your nerves, but please give me an English translation.
Acts 2:29–36 (KJV): 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Philippians 2:5–11 (KJV): 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Please note that all of this is to the glory of the One God. the Father, not to the Trinity or God the Son.

Incredible! You call the word "exegesis" an expletive.
I was referring to another word that you used to colour your two posts. You seem to have forgotten again. One dictionary gave the meaning to that word as "a load of rubbish", but possibly I would stand corrected as the word you used is not strictly an expletive, but I consider it inappropriate.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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