The wages of sin is death

[Nic]

Yes, I'm Unitarian.

Okay. Thank you.

 

[Runningman]

The Apostle's Creed is pretty good. Trinitarianism had not yet gotten a foothold in Christianity.
The Nicene Creed is when the Trinity was legislated into Christianity. It contains many non-biblical phrases describing Jesus Christ.
The Athanasian Creed is a travesty. It dictates that a person cannot be a Christian unless he believes the things stated therein.

God, AKA YHWH (Yahweh), AKA the Father, is the only true God (John 17:3; 1 Cor 8:6).

Jesus is the Christ, the Son OF God (John 20:31). He is a man who learned FROM God (John 8:40), was approved BY God (Acts 2:22), ordained BY God (Acts 17:31), resurrected BY God (many), HAS a God and ascended TO God (John 20:17).

The words "Holy Spirit" sometimes refer to God Himself (Acts 5:3-4) or to the gift given to people when they choose to believe the gospel (Acts 2:38).

Amen and I would also add Acts 10:37,38 because it quite succinctly states Jesus didn’t receive his Holy Spirit anointing with power until John’s water baptism.

37You yourselves know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee with the baptism that John proclaimed: 38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how Jesus went around doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, because God was with Him.

 

[Runningman]

I would clarify in that due to your repudiation of mainline early Christian tenets, that correctly stated your position would be that of a Christian heretic. Many others fall into this category, I could list numerius early church heresies. There is no shortage of heretics of the past nor present.
Contemporary examples would include but limited to Jehovah Witness, Islam, Mormons and here's one from the Philippines called Iglesia ni Cristo (INC).

But thanks for your reply on your background as requested.

Ever read the First Apology of Justin Martyr? It’s from approximately 155-157 AD. He espoused Unitarian beliefs in it. He didn’t say what you believe or what Luther believe.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

The wages of sin is death-
Although it may sound odd, is this something that could be understood as God will at some point collect on that debt from us or to put it another way, God is the author of both life and death.

Thoughts?
Thanks.

Deut 32: 39 covers it nicely.

 

[Nic]

Ever read the First Apology of Justin Martyr? It’s from approximately 155-157 AD. He espoused Unitarian beliefs in it. He didn’t say what you believe or what Luther believe.

Could you please quote what you are asserting, thanks.

 

[Our Lord's God]

Ever read the First Apology of Justin Martyr? It’s from approximately 155-157 AD. He espoused Unitarian beliefs in it. He didn’t say what you believe or what Luther believe.

It doesn't seem to me that a polytheist is a unitarian.

There is, and that there is said to be, another God and Lord subject to the Maker of all things who is also called an Angel...... Trypho, 56

 

[Runningman]

Could you please quote what you are asserting, thanks.

1st Apology of Justin Martyr chapter 6:

Hence are we called atheists. And we confess that we are atheists, so far as gods of this sort are concerned, but not with respect to the most true God, the Father of righteousness and tenperance and the other virtues, who is free from all impurity. But both Him, and the Son (who came forth from Him and taught us these things, and the host of the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him), and the prophetic Spirit, we worship and adore, knowing them in reason and truth, and declaring without grudging to every one who wishes to learn, as we have been taught.

 

[Nic]

1st Apology of Justin Martyr chapter 6:

Hence are we called atheists. And we confess that we are atheists, so far as gods of this sort are concerned, but not with respect to the most true God, the Father of righteousness and tenperance and the other virtues, who is free from all impurity. But both Him, and the Son (who came forth from Him and taught us these things, and the host of the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him), and the prophetic Spirit, we worship and adore, knowing them in reason and truth, and declaring without grudging to every one who wishes to learn, as we have been taught.

Can you demonstrate where he expounds on this assertion that you define as unitarian? Another unitarian seem to suggest that you were in error here.

 

[Runningman]

Can you demonstrate where he expounds on this assertion that you define as unitarian? Another unitarian seem to suggest that you were in error here.

Justin explicitly said it.The Father in your Trinity is the most true God according to Justin. That isn’t a Trinitarian belief.

 

[Nic]

Justin explicitly said it.The Father in your Trinity is the most true God according to Justin. That isn’t a Trinitarian belief.

I'm a Trinitarian I have no problem with that statement. I read elsewhere where even in this thread that Justin says more about the Godhead then what is offered here. If I can track down those references I'll post them. Thanks again for your response.
Is this the only comment by JM that supports your assertions or is there something more from somewhere else?

 

[Runningman]

Is this the only comment by JM that supports your assertions or is there something more from somewhere else?

For the sake of brevity I am just focusing on one of the “church fathers” who don’t believe what you do. Justin also said this:

“But both Him, and the Son (who came forth from Him and taught us these things, and the host of the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him)”

Do you believe the Son was “made” to be like the Father?

 

[Nic]

For the sake of brevity I am just focusing on one of the “church fathers” who don’t believe what you do. Justin also said this:

“But both Him, and the Son (who came forth from Him and taught us these things, and the host of the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him)”

Do you believe the Son was “made” to be like the Father?

To be clear church, patristics aren't on par with scripture, but I've already read of those who contest your assertions to include a fellow unitarian in this thread alone in response to your same claim.

 

[Tertiumquid]

1st Apology of Justin Martyr chapter 6:

Hence are we called atheists. And we confess that we are atheists, so far as gods of this sort are concerned, but not with respect to the most true God, the Father of righteousness and tenperance and the other virtues, who is free from all impurity. But both Him, and the Son (who came forth from Him and taught us these things, and the host of the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him), and the prophetic Spirit, we worship and adore, knowing them in reason and truth, and declaring without grudging to every one who wishes to learn, as we have been taught.

I haven't followed this discussion, so my apologies if what I say is irrelevant to whatever battle is going on here.

1. If I'm understanding you correctly, you interpret "made like him" to refer to "the Son" and "the other good angels." I suppose you're saying that Justin says the Son was "made" and therefore not God, therefore, no Trinity. Without having the original to see what's going on grammatically, it seems to me from a cursory reading that the phrase "the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him" is a phrase specific to "the other good angels." The way this sentence is constructed in English, there are two smaller phrases in this larger phrase, separated by a comma. The comma indicates the words in these two phrases are kept together. In other words, if you diagram the sentence:

the Son came forth from Him and taught us these things
the host of the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him

Justin is saying the Son came forth from the Father and that the good angels follow and are "made" like the Father. He isn't saying the Son was "made." Also, the notion of "came forth" is not necessarily against Trinitarian theology,... I'm thinking of the language of eternal generation.

2. It's interesting to me that in this passage that Justin says Christians worship and adore:

The Father of righteousness
The Son
The Prophetic Spirit

3. Note the baptismal formula Justin uses in chapter 61: "For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water."

I'm not saying that Justin was a full-fledged Nicean Trinitarian, but what is going on in his Apology is not so easily pigeonholed as Unitarianism.

 

[Runningman]

I haven't followed this discussion, so my apologies if what I say is irrelevant to whatever battle is going on here.

1. If I'm understanding you correctly, you interpret "made like him" to refer to "the Son" and "the other good angels." I suppose you're saying that Justin says the Son was "made" and therefore not God, therefore, no Trinity. Without having the original to see what's going on grammatically, it seems to me from a cursory reading that the phrase "the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him" is a phrase specific to "the other good angels." The way this sentence is constructed in English, there are two smaller phrases in this larger phrase, separated by a comma. The comma indicates the words in these two phrases are kept together. In other words, if you diagram the sentence:

the Son came forth from Him and taught us these things
the host of the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him

Justin is saying the Son came forth from the Father and that the good angels follow and are "made" like the Father. He isn't saying the Son was "made." Also, the notion of "came forth" is not necessarily against Trinitarian theology,... I'm thinking of the language of eternal generation.

2. It's interesting to me that in this passage that Justin says Christians worship and adore:

The Father of righteousness
The Son
The Prophetic Spirit

3. Note the baptismal formula Justin uses in chapter 61: "For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water."

I'm not saying that Justin was a full-fledged Nicean Trinitarian, but what is going on in his Apology is not so easily pigeonholed as Unitarianism.

The only one he called God is the Father. Justin also said “the other good angels” which indicates Justin is associating the Son with being an angel and not with being God. We know for sure God isn’t an angel. I believe 1 Apology was written in Greek. There’s probably something on it and I might look into it later.

 

[Nic]

The only one he called God is the Father. Justin also said “the other good angels” which indicates Justin is associating the Son with being an angel and not with being God. We know for sure God isn’t an angel. I believe 1 Apology was written in Greek. There’s probably something on it and I might look into it later.

Do you understand who were the audiences of Justin Martyr [JM] three surviving works? That may offer some insight into his responses and reflect a more comprehensive view of his position, right? What do you think?

 

[Runningman]

Do you understand who were the audiences of Justin Martyr [JM] three surviving works? That may offer some insight into his responses and reflect a more comprehensive view of his position, right? What do you think?

Yes, the opening words of 1 Apology say who it is written to. Do you think Justin meant what he said or are you looking for an alternative explanation that doesn’t paint you as the heretic here?

 

[Nic]

Yes, the opening words of 1 Apology say who it is written to. Do you think Justin meant what he said or are you looking for an alternative explanation that doesn’t paint you as the heretic here?

I think what's important to understand is when a person addresses a particular audience certain emphases are deliberate for any number of reasons or strategies. Are you also including the corpus of surviving JM works in his Christology? If so, would you care to further document from elsewhere where his Christology is representative of Unitarianism as you see it? Thanks.