The Weekend Papyrus 6-18-2021

Gryllus Maior

Active member
"A letter from Heraclides to Hatres, reproaching him for not sending 20 drachmae. The letter is on the verso of the papyrus, the recto containing parts of nineteen lines from a taxing-account." G&F. This is P.Oxy 3.532, http://papyri.info/ddbdp/p.oxy;3;532. Have fun, and make sure you work through the Greek before you look at the translation (for maximum benefit to your Greek).

1 Ἡρακλείδης Ἁτρῆτι
2 τῶι φιλτ(άτῳ) χ[α]ίρειν.
3 ἔδει μέν σε χωρ[ὶς τ]οῦ με
4 γεγραφέναι σοι διὰ Σαήτου
5 ἀναπέμψαι τὰς (δραχμὰς) κ, εἰδὼς
6 ὅτι αὐτόθι μετεβαλόμην
7 τοῖς κοινωνοῖς μου αὐ-
8 τάς, ἀλλὰ ἀνέμεινας τὸν
9 τοσοῦτον χρόνον μὴ ἀπο-
10 δούς. ἀναγκαίως οὖν τῷ
11 ἀναδιδό{υ}ντι σοι τὸ ἐπιστό-
12 λιον τοῦτο εὐθέως
13 ἀπόδος ὅπως κἀμὲ
14 ἄσκυλτον ποιήσῃς.
15 ὅρα οὖν μὴ ἄλλως πράξῃς
16 ⟦μὴ⟧ καὶ ποιήσῃς με πρὸς
17 σὲ ἐλθεῖν συνζητήσον-
18 τά σοι. καὶ γὰρ ἐν Παώ-
19 μει τότε σε εὗρον καὶ
20 βουλόμενόν σε φιλαν-
21 θρωπῶ⟦ση⟧σαι οὐκ ἀ-
22 νέμεινας ὑπὸ κακοῦ
23 συνειδότος κατεχό-
24 μενος.


3. ει of εδει corr. from ι. σε above και, which is crossed through.; 15. ν of ουν above the line.; 20. l. φιλανθρωπῆσαι.; 22. υ of κακου corr. from ς.

My notes:

Remember that double brackets [[...]] indicate that the text is in the papyrus but should not be read.
κ = 20.
18-21, some confusing syntax but fairly clear what's intended.
 

John Milton

Well-known member
1 Ἡρακλείδης Ἁτρῆτι
Heraclides to Hatres,

2 τῶι φιλτ(άτῳ) χ[α]ίρειν.
the most loved, greetings.

3 ἔδει μέν σε χωρ[ὶς τ]οῦ με
It is necessary for you, without me

4 γεγραφέναι σοι διὰ Σαήτου
writing to you, through Saetos

5 ἀναπέμψαι τὰς (δραχμὰς) κ, εἰδὼς
to send up the 20 drachmas, knowing

6 ὅτι αὐτόθι μετεβαλόμην
that I changed my own mind

7 τοῖς κοινωνοῖς μου αὐ-
to my partners the sa-

8 τάς, ἀλλὰ ἀνέμεινας τὸν
me [way], but you remained [for all]

9 τοσοῦτον χρόνον μὴ ἀπο-
this time, without pay-

10 δούς. ἀναγκαίως οὖν τῷ
ing. You are compelled.* Therefore, to
*I am using this sentence to translate ἀναγκαίως, even though it does not reflect the structure, to avoid having to alter the lines below,

11 ἀναδιδό{υ}ντι σοι τὸ ἐπιστό-
the one giving you this* brief letter, *actually in line 12.

12 λιον τοῦτο εὐθέως
immediately

13 ἀπόδος ὅπως κἀμὲ
pay*, so that even me *Very rough English, but the sense is clear.

14 ἄσκυλτον ποιήσῃς.
uninjured you may make.

15 ὅρα οὖν μὴ ἄλλως πράξῃς
See to it, then, that you do not do otherwise

16 ⟦μὴ⟧ καὶ ποιήσῃς με πρὸς
and make me to

17 σὲ ἐλθεῖν συνζητήσον-
go to you to argue

18 τά σοι. καὶ γὰρ ἐν Παώ-
with you. For even in Pao-

19 μει τότε σε εὗρον καὶ
mis, after I found* you and *I think this is a participle, but I rendered it in this manner to avoid bad English in line 21

20 βουλόμενόν σε φιλαν-
was wanting to show you

21 θρωπῶ⟦ση⟧σαι οὐκ ἀ-
kindness, you did not re-

22 νέμεινας ὑπὸ κακοῦ
main, by an evil

23 συνειδότος κατεχό-
understanding being held

24 μενος.
back.

I'm not sure what 22-24 is saying, exactly.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
Once again, you merely gave an interlinear type word for word transliteration into broken English without showing how the English words come together in a meaningful way. That is no translation. Anyone with a mediocre lexicon can do above. You just did exactly that. Just annoying.
 

John Milton

Well-known member
Once again, you merely gave an interlinear type word for word transliteration into broken English without showing how the English words come together in a meaningful way. That is no translation. Anyone with a mediocre lexicon can do above. You just did exactly that. Just annoying.
I gave my translations in the format that the thread creator requested them. Don't be salty just because you only wish you could do the same.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
I gave my translations in the format that the thread creator requested them. Don't be salty just because you only wish you could do the same.

I don't see the thread creator in OP requesting an an interlinear type word for word transliteration into broken English without showing how the English words come together in a meaningful way.

You did what someone pretending to translate does.
 

John Milton

Well-known member
I don't see the thread creator in OP requesting an an interlinear type word for word transliteration into broken English without showing how the English words come together in a meaningful way.
Then you haven't been following these threads.
You did what someone pretending to translate does.
I wouldn't know; however, you speak as one who is knowledgeable about the subject. Are you an authority?
 

Gryllus Maior

Active member
Fredo , even your brother will be hard pressed to extract you from this latest mess up.
First of all, there is no mess up. The format that JM has been using to translate is fine. Secondly, I don't remember recommending any format, e.g., doing a paragraph below the entire Greek text would be acceptable. Thirdly, does the translation make sense? If so, it doesn't matter whether it's interlinear or not. What matters is interacting with the Greek text. If you have any comments on that, RJM, we'd be glad to hear them.
 

John Milton

Well-known member
First of all, there is no mess up. The format that JM has been using to translate is fine. Secondly, I don't remember recommending any format, e.g., doing a paragraph below the entire Greek text would be acceptable. Thirdly, does the translation make sense? If so, it doesn't matter whether it's interlinear or not. What matters is interacting with the Greek text. If you have any comments on that, RJM, we'd be glad to hear them.
It wasn't so much format as style.
Yes, I think we need to start with a "stricter" reading before we get to the dynamic equivalency. φάσιν not the verb, but the noun φάσις, "mention." οὐδεμίαν μοι φάσιν ἀπέστειλας περὶ τῶν ἱματίων... "You have sent no mention to me concerning the garments..." and so the second usage. σημείου, probably a verbal communication in contrast to the written. Other than that I think you've captured the sense quite well.
 

Gryllus Maior

Active member
1 Ἡρακλείδης Ἁτρῆτι
Heraclides to Hatres,

2 τῶι φιλτ(άτῳ) χ[α]ίρειν.
the most loved, greetings.

3 ἔδει μέν σε χωρ[ὶς τ]οῦ με
It is necessary for you, without me

4 γεγραφέναι σοι διὰ Σαήτου
writing to you, through Saetos

5 ἀναπέμψαι τὰς (δραχμὰς) κ, εἰδὼς
to send up the 20 drachmas, knowing

6 ὅτι αὐτόθι μετεβαλόμην
that I changed my own mind

7 τοῖς κοινωνοῖς μου αὐ-
to my partners the sa-

8 τάς, ἀλλὰ ἀνέμεινας τὸν
me [way], but you remained [for all]

9 τοσοῦτον χρόνον μὴ ἀπο-
this time, without pay-

10 δούς. ἀναγκαίως οὖν τῷ
ing. You are compelled.* Therefore, to
*I am using this sentence to translate ἀναγκαίως, even though it does not reflect the structure, to avoid having to alter the lines below,

11 ἀναδιδό{υ}ντι σοι τὸ ἐπιστό-
the one giving you this* brief letter, *actually in line 12.

12 λιον τοῦτο εὐθέως
immediately

13 ἀπόδος ὅπως κἀμὲ
pay*, so that even me *Very rough English, but the sense is clear.

14 ἄσκυλτον ποιήσῃς.
uninjured you may make.

15 ὅρα οὖν μὴ ἄλλως πράξῃς
See to it, then, that you do not do otherwise

16 ⟦μὴ⟧ καὶ ποιήσῃς με πρὸς
and make me to

17 σὲ ἐλθεῖν συνζητήσον-
go to you to argue

18 τά σοι. καὶ γὰρ ἐν Παώ-
with you. For even in Pao-

19 μει τότε σε εὗρον καὶ
mis, after I found* you and *I think this is a participle, but I rendered it in this manner to avoid bad English in line 21

20 βουλόμενόν σε φιλαν-
was wanting to show you

21 θρωπῶ⟦ση⟧σαι οὐκ ἀ-
kindness, you did not re-

22 νέμεινας ὑπὸ κακοῦ
main, by an evil

23 συνειδότος κατεχό-
understanding being held

24 μενος.
back.

I'm not sure what 22-24 is saying, exactly.
3 ἔδει, "it was necessary," "you should have..."
6 μετεβαλόμην, "paid..." LSJ b. order to be paid, remit, POxy.1153.8 (i a.d.), 1419.5 (iii a.d.).
10 ἀναγκαίως, an adverb, "of necessity, perforce..." And it must be taken with the sentence it's in.
20 βουλόμενόν this is where I was referring to confusing syntax. It's accusative and looks like it should modify σε but that doesn't fit the context at all. We should read βουλόμενος instead, I think. φιλανθρωπῶσαι = "welcome." The sense of the whole sentence "Also then I found you in Paomis wanting to welcome you, but you didn't stay, being constrained by an evil mindset." I think that's a fancy way of saying "You ran away because you hadn't paid me yet."
 

John Milton

Well-known member
3 ἔδει, "it was necessary," "you should have..."
6 μετεβαλόμην, "paid..." LSJ b. order to be paid, remit, POxy.1153.8 (i a.d.), 1419.5 (iii a.d.).
10 ἀναγκαίως, an adverb, "of necessity, perforce..." And it must be taken with the sentence it's in.
20 βουλόμενόν this is where I was referring to confusing syntax. It's accusative and looks like it should modify σε but that doesn't fit the context at all. We should read βουλόμενος instead, I think. φιλανθρωπῶσαι = "welcome." The sense of the whole sentence "Also then I found you in Paomis wanting to welcome you, but you didn't stay, being constrained by an evil mindset." I think that's a fancy way of saying "You ran away because you hadn't paid me yet."
Thanks!
 
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