Theology and Church Music
- Thread starter ziapueblo
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SteveB
Well-known member
I love worship music. In and out of church services.
Granted, I've never attended a church service that didn't have worship music.
Furthermore, I've been learning to follow Jesus for several decades now and every church I've been to has had music of some variety or another.
Theologically speaking, Ephesians 5 discusses how we're to be filled with the Spirit and sing with psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs.
Colossians mentioned something similar.
Paul's letters discuss the importance of giving thanks and singing praise.
It depends on the words. Quotes William Booth:
Secular music, do you say, belongs to the devil? Does it? Well, if it did I would plunder him for it, for he has no right to a single note of the whole seven. Every note, and every strain, and every harmony is divine, and belongs to us.”
or
Why should the devil have all the best tunes?
I must admit I find some modern songs with words that are all about self. They tend not to uplifting for any one but self.
Deuteronomy
Active member
Hello Ziapueblo, I like a combination, but if it had to be one or the other, then the theology and doctrine that is taught in our hymns make them far more important to the church, IMHO anyway. While Christmas hymns are undoubtedly (as a whole) my favorites, especially musically speaking, the words of our hymns that help us know and better understand theology and doctrine (including long-held beliefs/traditions) should never be excluded (and yet they so often are these days, sadly).
Like @balshan said above, our modern worship music is often of the self-focused/feel good variety, rather than focusing our attention on God alone like our hymns do, and it is the latter than I prefer for that reason, far and away. Praise/worship music is typically easier to sing (and there are many other things that are good about it), but it just doesn't compare to the great hymns of the church (again, IMHO).
I was raised in a pretty liberal Protestant denomination (though it is FAR worse today), and if it wasn't for the hymns, I'm pretty certain that I would have never learned much of anything about God/theology and doctrine, about what we believe and why (after Sunday School, that is).
Below are the words to just three of the hymns that I love, in case you or anyone else is interested. The first two actually have pretty good melodies/music, the third (Rock of Ages) not so much, but it's the words to all three of them that are the most incredible part
God bless you!!
~Deuteronomy
p.s. - what is the music like in the EOC (both Christmas and otherwise)? I had an EOC friend point me towards a performance of Rachmaninov's "Vespers" once (which was certainly a wonderful blessing). I've also wondered about the EOC and music like Gregorian Chant (or is that strictly a Western Catholic thing)? Thanks
A Mighty Fortress is Our God
Author: Martin Luther
Composer: Martin Luther
Scripture: Ps 46
1 A mighty fortress is our God,
A bulwark never failing;
Our helper He amid the flood
Of mortal ills prevailing;
For still our ancient foe
Doth seek to work us woe;
His craft and pow’r are great,
And armed with cruel hate,
On earth is not His equal
2 Did we in our own strength confide,
Our striving would be losing;
Were not the right Man on our side,
The Man of God’s own choosing;
Dost ask who that may be?
Christ Jesus, it is He;
Lord Sabaoth, His name,
From age to age the same,
And He must win the battle.
3 And tho’ this world, with devils filled,
Should threaten to undo us,
We will not fear, for God hath willed
His truth to triumph thro’ us;
The prince of Darkness grim,
We tremble not for him;
His rage we can endure,
For lo, his doom is sure,
One little word shall fell him.
4 That word above all earthly pow’rs,
No thanks to them, abideth;
The Spirit and the gifts are ours Thro’
Him who with us sideth:
Let goods and kindred go,
This mortal life also;
The body they may kill:
God’s truth abideth still,
His kingdom is forever.
Hark! the Herald Angels Sing
Author: Charles Wesley, et. al.)
Composer: Felix Mendelssohn
Scripture: Luke 2:14; Lk 2:10–14
1 Hark! The herald angels sing
‘Glory to the newborn King;’
Peace on earth and mercy mild;
God and sinners reconciled.’
Joyful, all ye nations rise,
join the triumph of the skies;
with angelic host proclaim,
‘Christ is born in Bethlehem!’
Hark the herald angels sing,
‘Glory to the newborn King.’
2 Christ by highest heav’n adored,
Christ the everlasting Lord:
Late in time, behold Him come,
Offspring of a virgin’s womb.
Veiled in flesh the Godhead see,
Hail th’incarnate Deity!
Pleased as man with men to dwell,
Jesus our Immanuel.
Hark! the herald angels sing,
‘Glory to the newborn King.’
3 Hail the heav’n born Prince of Peace!
Hail the Sun of righteousness!
Light and life to all He brings,
Ris’n with healing in His wings.
Mild He lays His glory by,
Born that man no more may die,
Born to raise the sons of earth,
Born to give them second birth.
Hark! the herald angels sing,
‘Glory to the newborn King.’
Rock of Ages
Author: Rev. Augustus M. Toplady
Composer: Thomas Hastings
Scripture: 1 Corinthians 10:4; Ps 94:22
1 Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
Let me hide myself in Thee;
Let the water and the blood,
From Thy wounded side which flowed,
Be of sin the double cure,
Save from wrath and make me pure.
2 Not the labors of my hands
Can fulfill Thy law’s demands;
These for sin could not atone;
Thou must save, and Thou alone:
In my hand no price I bring,
Simply to Thy cross I cling.
3 While I draw this fleeting breath,
When mine eyes shall close in death,
When I rise to worlds unknown,
And behold Thee on Thy throne,
Rock of ages cleft for me,
Let me hide myself in Thee.
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ziapueblo
Active member
Thanks for the response
ziapueblo
Active member
Here is the Nativity hymn that is sung during the four Sunday's or so before Christmas. It's the Kontakion (Kontakion is a particular type of hymn) of the fore feast of the Nativity.
This is the Apolytikion for Theophany (January 6)
Pascha (Easter) hymn
I have a bunch of playlists I can share. I chant in my Church choir and this is one of my favorite topics. If you have questions I'd love to try to answer them for you.
The videos I posted above are Byzantine chant. Byzantine chant is not the only type of chanting in the Orthodox Church but it is what you hear in Greek Churches or Antiochian Churches. Some OCA (Orthodox Church in America) use Byzantine chant. Gregorian chant is a western style that is not used in the Orthodox Church.
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Runningman
Well-known member
I don't see music as form of worship. I think praise and worship are different things. What I see in the Bible is that it's the intention of people and their heart that matters most.
Matthew 15
8“ ‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’
ziapueblo
Active member
True and there is a place for both, wouldn't you say?
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Wesley actially consider his hymns to be teaching tools, and DIDN'T want people to sing harmony parts because he felt that "Thinking about harmony" prevented them from concentrating on the theological MESSAGE in his hymns.
The old hymn "There's a New Name Written down in glory" in it's "rewritten" form now contains many lines that are repeated over and over including: "I am who I am because the I AM tells me who I am" repeated with STRONG rhymic backup 8-10 times. Catchy - true - but I prefer the original.
Bonnie
Super Member
A combo of the two. And should be Christ-focused, not "me" focused, or focused on our feelings. That is how I see it.
Bonnie
Super Member
That is one of the things I dislike about some modern church music--the repetition--the 7/11 songs--the seven same words repeated 11 or more times.
Lastdaysbeliever
Well-known member
There's much to be said about the old hymns and having the whole fellowship worshipping in unison as the Spirit moves, and always praying our worship and praise is a sweet aroma to the Father.
Bonnie
Super Member
I like theologically dense hymns, that tell us what Jesus did for us, and why.
Bonnie
Super Member
I did not know Wesley disliked harmonizing, but he had a point.
He wrote one of my very favorite Christmas hymns--"Hark, the Herald Angels Sing." The whole gospel is in three verses. It is a masterpiece.
I seem to remember he wrote a 4th verse, but it is little used.
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Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Reminds me of the fellow who was asked what his job was, and he answered:
I write modern worship choruses!
I write modern worship choruses!
I write modern worship choruses!
I write modern worship choruses!
I write modern worship choruses!
I write modern worship choruses!
I write modern worship choruses!
Bonnie
Super Member
Oh, Bob, that is funny! Did you by chance look at the link I posted?
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Yup - 'ol Clint didn't seem too impressed -
BUT - I'm 80, and "It Is Well With My Soul", (and knowing the story behind it) will bring me to tears every time. I remember a concert Bill Gaither did years ago in University of Dayton Arena. with 13,000 people he just sat at the piano and led us like a typical congregatiom. When 13,000 voices answers (with gusto) "IT IS WELL" on the chorus, It was just indescribable -
Our church DOES provide an "early" service at 9:00 for us OLD people where they sing the OLD hymns and have an old fashioned Assembly of God Pianist. - delicious. My wife likes the contemporary service - so that's the one we go to.
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Rockson
Well-known member
I think wise leaders of churches should get the feel for their people what resonates best with them. I've seen in some town churches where the younger pastors want to appeal to the next generation. I get that BUT certain places or regions are a different demographic population. Some towns are full of retirement people that might like things more traditional. Get the feel for the people in what will best cause them to enter into praise and worship. Some communities you can have a younger way of doing things....or a mix....or totally traditional.
Bonnie
Super Member
The lyrics aren't too bad for that song:
it is well with my soul lyrics - Bing
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It does have the Gospel in it.