There are some here that insist that God is only one person?

[jamesh]

They begin with the assumption that God is only One person. Yahchristian and Oneness Pentecostals to name a couple. So here is my question, did God beget himself? If He does this would mean that Yeshua becomes his own father, which destroys the notion that the Father and Son are distinct persons since you would have that they are one and the same person.

Furthermore, the hidden assumption underlying this argument is the "ASSUMPTION" of your own conclusion: that God is only (and can only be) ONE person. The "FACT" is all sons bear the distinguishing nature of their fathers. The inspired authors of scripture applied that bluntly obvious truth used in an idiom to convey the shared nature of the Father and the Son. In fact, it was for the very crime of claiming to be THE SON OF GOD that Christ was executed for blasphemy. Obviously, the Jews understood their own language better than we do.

The Bible is extremely clear in declaring that the Father begat the Son. John 3:16, 1 John 4:9 to name a couple.

IN GOD THE SON,
james

 

[Yahchristian]

So here is my question, did God beget himself?

YES.

In reference to God I understand “beget” to mean “manifest in the flesh”.

1 Timothy 3:16... And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Since I believe “God manifest in the flesh” IS “God”, and I believe “manifest in the flesh” means “beget”, it could be said “God beget Himself”.

For example, in this verse, I believe “God himself” refers to “God manifest in the flesh”...

Revelation 21:3... And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

What is your answer to your YES or NO question...

Did God beget himself?

 

[jamesh]

YES.

In reference to God I understand “beget” to mean “manifest in the flesh”.

1 Timothy 3:16... And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Since I believe “God manifest in the flesh” IS “God”, and I believe “manifest in the flesh” means “beget”, it could be said “God beget Himself”.

For example, in this verse, I believe “God himself” refers to “God manifest in the flesh”...

Revelation 21:3... And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

What is your answer to your YES or NO question...

Did God beget himself?

No, you don't understand, period. If you understood would not ask me the same question I'm asking you. The definition of begotten: "An adjective, begotten is the past participle of the verb beget, which means TO FATHER OR PRODUCE AS OFFSPRING. So, if the Father begot His one and only Son that means Jesus Christ (by definition) is a distinct person from the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Here again is the same ole problem you have been having for years, you do not understand the difference between the word "being" and the word "person." The way you understand all of this is that you think that since God is one person he must be the Son as well as the Father and the Holy Spirit. NO! God is ONE being who chose to manifest Himself as three distinct persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Don't you think I know what all the verses you referenced mean? Yes, God was manifested in the flesh! But what person was manifested in the flesh? The Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit? Tell me, who would you pick? In fact, tell me from 1 Timothy 3:16 who the Apostle Paul was referencing?

IN GOD THE SON,
james

 

[Photine]

Jude 5
Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, later destroyed those who did not believe.

Wait I can hear you now.. "not Jesus ALONE"..

 

[Yahchristian]

No, you don't understand, period. If you understood would not ask me the same question I'm asking you.

So I believe God DID beget himself as Jesus.

Whereas you believe God did NOT beget himself as Jesus.

I would like to hear from EVERY TRINITARIAN on this forum...

Did God beget himself?

Notice the question simply says “God”.

 

[Yahchristian]

God is ONE being who chose to manifest Himself as three distinct persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Yes, God was manifested in the flesh!

Just to clarify your Trinitarian view...

Does the word “God” in each of your two statements above refer to the exact same referent?

 

[Yahchristian]

But what person was manifested in the flesh? The Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit? Tell me, who would you pick? In fact, tell me from 1 Timothy 3:16 who the Apostle Paul was referencing?

The Apostle Paul simply said “God” manifest in the flesh.

He did NOT say one of three Persons / Subsistences / Suppositas / etc manifest in the flesh.

So “God” is the Person who manifest in the flesh.

Just to clarify your TRINITARIAN view...

Does every mention of “God” below refer to the same Person?

I say Yes.

1 Timothy 3:15-16... But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

 

[jamesh]

Just to clarify your Trinitarian view...

Does the word “God” in each of your two statements above refer to the exact same referent?

Yes, God was manifested in the flesh because Jesus is God in the flesh, John 1:14. Having said that what person within the Godhead manifested himself in the flesh according to the Apostle Paul at 1 Timothy 3:16? In this verse it says, "He who was revealed in the flesh."

It has to be the person of Son because even the Son says the person of God the Father cannot be seen. John 5:37, John 6:46 and John 1:18. Try as you must you cannot get out of the position you put yourself in by not understanding the difference between "being" and "person" and asking the same questions in a different way. There is, there was and there will always be God in three persons.

IN GOD THE SON,
james

 

[Photine]

There is, there was and there will always be God in three persons.

Only the Son knows the Father (Matt 11:27). So it's more like two persons if anything.

 

[jamesh]

Jude 5
Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, later destroyed those who did not believe.

Wait I can hear you now.. "not Jesus ALONE"..

Where does it say Jesus at Jude 5, it says "the Lord." And btw, Jude is referencing Exodus 12:51, "And it came about on that same day that the Lord brought the sons of Israel out of the land of Egypt by their hosts." It says "the Lord" in this verse as well, who is the Lord that is being referenced?

IN GOD THE SON,
james

 

[Photine]

Where does it say Jesus at Jude 5, it says "the Lord."

Bible Gateway passage: Jude 5 - New English Translation

Now I desire to remind you (even though you have been fully informed of these facts once for all) that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, later destroyed those who did not believe.

www.biblegateway.com

tc The reading ᾿Ιησοῦς (Iēsous, “Jesus”) is deemed too hard by several scholars, since it involves the notion of Jesus acting in the early history of the nation Israel (the NA27 has “the Lord” instead of “Jesus”). However, not only does this reading enjoy the strongest support from a variety of early witnesses (e.g., A B 33 81 88 322 424c 665 915 1241 (1735: “the Lord Jesus”) 1739 1881 2298 2344 vg co eth Or1739mg Cyr Hier Bede), but the plethora of variants demonstrate that scribes were uncomfortable with it, for they seemed to exchange κύριος (kurios, “Lord”) or θεός (theos, “God”) for ᾿Ιησοῦς (though P72 has the intriguing reading θεὸς Χριστός [theos Christos, “God Christ”] for ᾿Ιησοῦς). As difficult as the reading ᾿Ιησοῦς is, in light of v. 4 and in light of the progress of revelation (Jude being one of the last books in the NT to be composed), it is wholly appropriate. The NA28 text now also reads Ιησοῦς. For defense of this reading, see Philipp Bartholomä, “Did Jesus Save the People out of Egypt: A Re-examination of a Textual Problem in Jude 5, ” NovT 50 (2008): 143-58.sn The construction our Master and Lord, Jesus Christ in v. 4 follows Granville Sharp’s rule (see note on Lord). The construction strongly implies the deity of Christ. This is followed by a statement that Jesus was involved in the salvation (and later judgment) of the Hebrews. He is thus to be identified with the Lord God, Yahweh. Verse 5, then, simply fleshes out what is implicit in v. 4.

 

[jamesh]

Bible Gateway passage: Jude 5 - New English Translation

Now I desire to remind you (even though you have been fully informed of these facts once for all) that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, later destroyed those who did not believe.

www.biblegateway.com

tc The reading ᾿Ιησοῦς (Iēsous, “Jesus”) is deemed too hard by several scholars, since it involves the notion of Jesus acting in the early history of the nation Israel (the NA27 has “the Lord” instead of “Jesus”). However, not only does this reading enjoy the strongest support from a variety of early witnesses (e.g., A B 33 81 88 322 424c 665 915 1241 (1735: “the Lord Jesus”) 1739 1881 2298 2344 vg co eth Or1739mg Cyr Hier Bede), but the plethora of variants demonstrate that scribes were uncomfortable with it, for they seemed to exchange κύριος (kurios, “Lord”) or θεός (theos, “God”) for ᾿Ιησοῦς (though P72 has the intriguing reading θεὸς Χριστός [theos Christos, “God Christ”] for ᾿Ιησοῦς). As difficult as the reading ᾿Ιησοῦς is, in light of v. 4 and in light of the progress of revelation (Jude being one of the last books in the NT to be composed), it is wholly appropriate. The NA28 text now also reads Ιησοῦς. For defense of this reading, see Philipp Bartholomä, “Did Jesus Save the People out of Egypt: A Re-examination of a Textual Problem in Jude 5, ” NovT 50 (2008): 143-58.sn The construction our Master and Lord, Jesus Christ in v. 4 follows Granville Sharp’s rule (see note on Lord). The construction strongly implies the deity of Christ. This is followed by a statement that Jesus was involved in the salvation (and later judgment) of the Hebrews. He is thus to be identified with the Lord God, Yahweh. Verse 5, then, simply fleshes out what is implicit in v. 4.

Actually I wanted to see how you would answer the question? I already know the answer even though some the scholars above, "deemed" it too hard to know for sure. Read Judges 2:1-5, I will only quote vs1, "Now the angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim, And HE said, "I brought you out of Egypt and led you into the land which I HAVE SWORN to your fathers; and I said, I will never break My covenant with you." The covenant is referenced at Genesis 17:7.

The angel of the Lord is none other than the preincarnate Jeus Christ. Do you agree or disagree?

IN GOD THE SON,
james

 

[Yahchristian]

Try as you must you cannot get out of the position you put yourself in by not understanding the difference between "being" and "person"

Since you are claiming I do not understand the difference between "being" and "person"...

For the benefit of lurkers...

Please post your definitions for “a being” and “a person” here.

I define “a being” as “a sentient living thing”.

I define “a person” as “a spirit or human being”.

 

[Photine]

Actually I wanted to see how you would answer the question? I already know the answer even though some the scholars above, "deemed" it too hard to know for sure. Read Judges 2:1-5, I will only quote vs1, "Now the angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim, And HE said, "I brought you out of Egypt and led you into the land which I HAVE SWORN to your fathers; and I said, I will never break My covenant with you." The covenant is referenced at Genesis 17:7.

The angel of the Lord is none other than the preincarnate Jeus Christ. Do you agree or disagree?

IN GOD THE SON,
james

Salvation is ONLY found in Jesus (Acts 4:12).

 

[johnny guitar]

YES.

In reference to God I understand “beget” to mean “manifest in the flesh”.

1 Timothy 3:16... And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Since I believe “God manifest in the flesh” IS “God”, and I believe “manifest in the flesh” means “beget”, it could be said “God beget Himself”.

For example, in this verse, I believe “God himself” refers to “God manifest in the flesh”...

Revelation 21:3... And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

What is your answer to your YES or NO question...

Did God beget himself?

Beget does NOT mean manifest in the flesh.
Sheer fiction.

 

[johnny guitar]

The Apostle Paul simply said “God” manifest in the flesh.

He did NOT say one of three Persons / Subsistences / Suppositas / etc manifest in the flesh.

So “God” is the Person who manifest in the flesh.

Just to clarify your TRINITARIAN view...

Does every mention of “God” below refer to the same Person?

I say Yes.

1 Timothy 3:15-16... But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

And The Bible reveals it was The SON who manifested.

 

[Photine]

And The Bible reveals it was The SON who manifested.

So more of "not Jesus ALONE"..

 

[johnny guitar]

So more of "not Jesus ALONE"..

Don't understand your response.
The Son ALONE manifested in the flesh.

 

[Photine]

Don't understand your response.
The Son ALONE manifested in the flesh.

The verse says God not "the Son".

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings jamesh,

Seeing this is a recent thread, I will only briefly answer the OP, overlooking other posts by you and others.

They begin with the assumption that God is only One person. Yahchristian and Oneness Pentecostals to name a couple.

I do not represent the same position as Yahchristian or Oneness Pentecostals. I believe that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is a human, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection. You use the word "assumption", but I do not base my belief upon an assumption, but what the Scriptures clearly state.

So here is my question, did God beget himself? If He does this would mean that Yeshua becomes his own father, which destroys the notion that the Father and Son are distinct persons since you would have that they are one and the same person.

Seems a nonsense question and statement.

Furthermore, the hidden assumption underlying this argument is the "ASSUMPTION" of your own conclusion: that God is only (and can only be) ONE person. The "FACT" is all sons bear the distinguishing nature of their fathers. The inspired authors of scripture applied that bluntly obvious truth used in an idiom to convey the shared nature of the Father and the Son. In fact, it was for the very crime of claiming to be THE SON OF GOD that Christ was executed for blasphemy. Obviously, the Jews understood their own language better than we do.

No, Jesus is a human.

The Bible is extremely clear in declaring that the Father begat the Son. John 3:16, 1 John 4:9 to name a couple.

And to name two more Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35.

Kind regards
Trevor