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Judges13:18

Well-known member
I, personally, really have no excuse for not continuing to believe other than I just wouldn't want to. As a new believer I saw the Holy Spirit come down on a congregation. But that is in no way the basis for my believing. The forgiveness of my sins is. I hardly ever even think about that experience. It's a nothing burger in regard to keeping me in the faith.

I have noticed that the forgiveness of sin means little to nothing to people who struggle with believing in God. I'm convinced the struggle with believing is because of the absence of a solid foundation of having and valuing the forgiveness of ones sins. And the failure to have that foundation can be traced back to some kind of dispute or disagreement that person has with God about sin and their guilt regarding sin.
 

Judges13:18

Well-known member
Ok.

The one who wants to believe will always find a way to rationalise whatever they see as being from God. They need no convincing proof for Christ.

Now what?
As I have explained the proof is in the conviction of your sin within you.

You hear about your sin and how you're guilty and won't go to be with God when you die and then you hear about the Gospel and how God wants to forgive you and with that message comes this conviction that you just know it's true.
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
You hear about your sin and how you're guilty and won't go to be with God when you die and then you hear about the Gospel and how God wants to forgive you and with that message comes this conviction that you just know it's true.
I think you are self deceived about this. How would you know you weren't?
 
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positive atheist

Well-known member
Disagreement about sin is always the reason why people don't believe, or, as in your case, stop believing. There's no other reason to stop believing. Except maybe you don't like getting up early on Sundays.
I will say again: I state openly that my atheism has nothing to do with pride or humility. I am simply a person who believes that evidence is the best way of finding the truth. If I came across some excellent evidence that god exists I would believe it.

You say: Disagreement about sin is always the reason why people don't believe......

On what basis do you disbelieve me? I can't imagine what possible reason you could have for not believing me. Do you think I am outright lying? Am I consciously and intentionally tricking you?

Positive Atheist said:
If I came across some excellent evidence that god exists I would believe it.

Judges said:
No you wouldn't. You'd find a way to rationalize it away.

Not true at all. If I somehow came across irrefutable evidence that god exists I would be in a quandary since there already exists irrefutable evidence he does not exist. What could I do? I'd have to start again and review the evidence. Perhaps the evidence that god does not exist was mistaken. Maybe a god exists other than the one I proved doesn't exist (i.e. maybe buddhism is true). I would show the evidence to theists and atheists and get their opinion. Sometimes decisions are not perfectly clear and you have to weigh evidence. I guess if I could not come to a decision I would have to remain undecided.

But if the evidence definitely proved christianity or any other religion then that is what I would believe. Why would I not? Unlike christians my whole life is not about atheism so becoming a christian or any other religion would be no problem? My entire life I have been incorrigibly logical. My friends call me "brutally honest" because if I am asked a question I tell the truth with no regard for tact. If the evidence proved god existed I would believe it. No problem.
 

positive atheist

Well-known member
I'd have to know what PA considered excellent evidence that God exists before I can answer that.
That is a very complicated question.

For one thing god seems to have made the mistake of his evidence being easily confused with mental illness. This obviously is a critical mistake. So if I turn around right now and jesus is standing there what do I do? For one thing I don't know what jesus looks like so how do i know it's him? Let's say he identifies himself. Tomorrow I'd probably go to a psychiatrist and tell him what happened. He'd likely tell me to forget it and tell me to come back in 3 months for a follow up visit. Let's say during that time jesus appears 4 more times. Now I go back and tell the doctor jesus appeared to me 4 more times and he diagnoses me as mentally ill. Who do I believe? The doctor or some unknown person who inexplicably appears?

Of course if I said to jesus "let's go outside" and I introduced him to my neighbors who agreed "someone" was standing there that would at least prove I am not mentally ill, but it still doesn't prove who this character is.

Also if I turned around and someone was standing behind me, I would be startled, and not knowing what jesus looks like I might assume an intruder and attack him and call 911.

This brings up the problem of miracles in general. As I have argued previously miracles are evidence of nothing. This seems to be another critical mistake on the part of god. Let's say I saw the resurrection. What does it prove about christianity? Nothing. Does it prove that the christian god exists? No. Does it prove god is omnipotent? No. Does it prove god is omniscient? No. What does it prove? Nothing. It would just be a head scratching unexplainable event that proves nothing. Evidence for it to be good has to be 1) easily believable and 2) evidentially connected to whatever is being proven. Miracles are impossible events, the exact opposite of easily believable.

Let's say my friend says to me "I was at the beach today" and he shows me a bag that contains shells, a dead starfish, and an empty crab shell. Then he shows me he has sand in his shoes. This would be good evidence he really was at the beach. The evidence is easily believable. And it is logically related to his claim because shells, starfish, crab shells, and sand are all things you can get at the beach.

Let's say my friend says to me "I was at the beach today" and then he levitates in the air 3 feet. That would be surprising and not understandable but not good evidence he was at the beach. First it seems like a strange unbelievable event. Second there is no logical connection to that event and him being at the beach.

I guess god would have to present himself to me. Identify and explain himself to me. Then present convincing evidence that what he says is true. Other than that I don't know. I don't know what god is so I don't know what good evidence would be for his existence.

I have argued in the past though, and it is true, if god is omniscient and he has some message he wants me to believe, then he knows what argument would convince me. Let's call it argument A. God could simply present A to me. I would consider it, and be convinced. My freewill is not violated because presenting good evidence to someone does not take away their freewill. And the problem is solved. Why not simply present A?
 

positive atheist

Well-known member
I, personally, really have no excuse for not continuing to believe other than I just wouldn't want to. As a new believer I saw the Holy Spirit come down on a congregation. But that is in no way the basis for my believing. The forgiveness of my sins is. I hardly ever even think about that experience. It's a nothing burger in regard to keeping me in the faith.

I have noticed that the forgiveness of sin means little to nothing to people who struggle with believing in God. I'm convinced the struggle with believing is because of the absence of a solid foundation of having and valuing the forgiveness of ones sins. And the failure to have that foundation can be traced back to some kind of dispute or disagreement that person has with God about sin and their guilt regarding sin.
But that is in no way the basis for my believing. The forgiveness of my sins is.
I don't see how that is evidence of anything. For one, how do you know your sins are forgiven? Did god send you an email, text, show up at your house? How did you get this message?

And even if your sins were forgiven by "someone" what does that prove about christianity?
I have noticed that the forgiveness of sin means little to nothing to people who struggle with believing in God.
Is this a surprise? A sin means to do something god does not want you to do. If I don't believe god exists obviously I don't believe sins exist. I have nothing that "can be traced back to some kind of dispute or disagreement that person has with God about sin and their guilt regarding sin."

I must say this is all very odd. Some philosophers have pointed out that worldwide disbelief is itself evidence god doesn't exist. It seems if god had some message to get across to the world he would successfully communicate it to everyone and everyone could make up their own mind. But god doesn't seem to have done even that. Very strange.
 

Judges13:18

Well-known member
That is a very complicated question.

For one thing god seems to have made the mistake of his evidence being easily confused with mental illness. This obviously is a critical mistake. So if I turn around right now and jesus is standing there what do I do? For one thing I don't know what jesus looks like so how do i know it's him? Let's say he identifies himself. Tomorrow I'd probably go to a psychiatrist and tell him what happened. He'd likely tell me to forget it and tell me to come back in 3 months for a follow up visit. Let's say during that time jesus appears 4 more times. Now I go back and tell the doctor jesus appeared to me 4 more times and he diagnoses me as mentally ill. Who do I believe? The doctor or some unknown person who inexplicably appears?

Of course if I said to jesus "let's go outside" and I introduced him to my neighbors who agreed "someone" was standing there that would at least prove I am not mentally ill, but it still doesn't prove who this character is.

Also if I turned around and someone was standing behind me, I would be startled, and not knowing what jesus looks like I might assume an intruder and attack him and call 911.

This brings up the problem of miracles in general. As I have argued previously miracles are evidence of nothing. This seems to be another critical mistake on the part of god. Let's say I saw the resurrection. What does it prove about christianity? Nothing. Does it prove that the christian god exists? No. Does it prove god is omnipotent? No. Does it prove god is omniscient? No. What does it prove? Nothing. It would just be a head scratching unexplainable event that proves nothing. Evidence for it to be good has to be 1) easily believable and 2) evidentially connected to whatever is being proven. Miracles are impossible events, the exact opposite of easily believable.

Let's say my friend says to me "I was at the beach today" and he shows me a bag that contains shells, a dead starfish, and an empty crab shell. Then he shows me he has sand in his shoes. This would be good evidence he really was at the beach. The evidence is easily believable. And it is logically related to his claim because shells, starfish, crab shells, and sand are all things you can get at the beach.

Let's say my friend says to me "I was at the beach today" and then he levitates in the air 3 feet. That would be surprising and not understandable but not good evidence he was at the beach. First it seems like a strange unbelievable event. Second there is no logical connection to that event and him being at the beach.

I guess god would have to present himself to me. Identify and explain himself to me. Then present convincing evidence that what he says is true. Other than that I don't know. I don't know what god is so I don't know what good evidence would be for his existence.
There is no outward evidence that would convince you or anyone else that God exists. As I said, the Israelites proved that. God shows himself to a person through the conviction of sin, righteousness, and judgment. Outward signs don't work. They may tip the balance for a person teetering on belief, but they aren't useful by themselves in proving God exists. And, perhaps, they temporarily convince a person God exists. But they're just too readily and easily rationalized as being of natural origin, not spiritual. The way that he has established for revealing himself to man is effective toward his purpose of sorting out the humble from the proud and populating his kingdom with the former. That's the plan. That's his mission. In the end, either a person responds to the conviction of the word of God, or they don't. End of debate.
 

Judges13:18

Well-known member
It seems if god had some message to get across to the world he would successfully communicate it to everyone and everyone could make up their own mind. But god doesn't seem to have done even that. Very strange.
He has communicated the message of the cross across the world. But only those with humble hearts who aren't contending with him about sin and judgement receive it. That's the plan. You either respond in humility to the message, or you don't.
 

Judges13:18

Well-known member
Is this a surprise? A sin means to do something god does not want you to do. If I don't believe god exists obviously I don't believe sins exist. I have nothing that "can be traced back to some kind of dispute or disagreement that person has with God about sin and their guilt regarding sin."
No, it's not a surprise. As I've said, unbelief always come down to the sin issue.

To one degree or another the atheist redefines sin, or says it doesn't exist, or that God is unfair in his assesment of sin and mankind's guilt regarding it, but never does the atheist acknowledge what the Bible says about sin and the human race without challenging it in some way. Is that just a coincidence?
 

JAG

Active member
Another prediction from the Bible written 2000 years ago and came true with exact timing and details. Another proof the Bible is the true word of God.

1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. - 2 Tim 3:1-5
The Bible is indeed the word of God and the above prediction is true indeed, but
the story does not end with gloom. The story ends with victory -- the victory of a
Christianized world BEFORE the Lord Jesus returns. There is no puny human power
in this universe that has the power to defeat the power of The Cross, the power
of The Resurrection, the power of the Ascension (I go to my Father), the power of The
Exaltation (being NOW seated at the right hand of God Almighty) ← all this has already
defeated
sin and Satan and now Jesus' Christian Church is gradually and incrementally
Christianizing the world. It will take many millenniums, but Jesus will build His church -- the the
world will be Christianized through simple gospel preaching by the supernatural power of
the Holy Spirit.

Cheers.

JAG

[]
 

positive atheist

Well-known member
The way that he has established for revealing himself to man is effective toward his purpose of sorting out the humble from the proud and populating his kingdom with the former.
It just doesn't seem like a very great plan. For one thing a person who is humble is no more likely to understand god's plan than anyone else. And a person who is proud, depending on to what degree, could easily understand god's plan. Filling heaven with humble people doesn't seem like a great idea. A person can be humble, and also, stupid, lazy, unkind, indecent, uncaring.

Research about hell has been done over and over and out of all the people who believe in hell about 95% believe there is basically no chance they are going there. This statistic stays the same. I find that people who are really into hell almost always have a lot of suppressed or repressed anger. Hell is a fantasy revenge wish.
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
You wouldn't believe it's from him.
There would be ways to verify it was. For example, God could include in the fax an explanation for something in physics something we currently don't understand, with equations and everything. Or, God could say to soak a napkin in water and at a specified time he would set it alight. There's an almost endless list of things God could do in a fax that would confirm it was from Him
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Is lying a sin?
Because last time I checked...
There's something written about bearing false witness also, right?
Perhaps for you the laws are "flexible"?
Lying is an egregious sin. My stats are these

REPORTED ANNUAL ABORTIONS 1973-2020

There are two basic courses on abortion data in the U.S.:

  • The U.S. Centers for Disease Control (CDC) publishes yearly, but relies on voluntary reports from state health departments (and New York City, Washington, D.C.). It has been missing data from California, New Hampshire, and at least one other state since 1998.
  • The Guttmacher Institute (GI) contacts abortion clinics directly for data but does not always survey every year.
  • Because it surveys clinics directly and includes data from all 50 states, most researchers believe Guttmacher’s numbers to be more reliable, though Guttmacher still believes it may miss some abortions.
While both Guttmacher and the CDC show big drops over the last 30 years, recent years show increases.

  • Total abortions dropped 29.8 percent from 1998 to 2020 with the CDC, and fell 42.2 percent from 1990 to 2020 with GI.
  • The abortion rate for 2020 for GI was 14.4 abortions for every 1,000 women of reproductive (15-44), less than half that of the high of 29.3 in 1981. While up since 2017 (13.5), it is still lower than when abortion was legalized in the U.S. in 1973 (16.3).
  • GI says there were 20.6 abortions for every 100 pregnancies ending in live birth or abortion in 2020, up from 18.3 in 2016, the lowest abortion ratio since 1972.
  • GI says that abortion “providers” rose slightly to 1,603 in 2020 from 1,587 in 2017. The high was 2,918 in 1982.
  • According to the GI, more than half (53 percent) of aboritons were done with chemical abortifacients like mifepristone in 2020. It had been just 16.4 percent as recently as 2008.
  • In June 2022, Dobbs overturned Roe, activating “trigger laws” in some states offering the unborn full protection or otherwise limiting abortion. Many clinics closed, but some women went to other states or ordered abortion pills online.

Reported Annual Abortions – 1973-2022​


YEAR
GICDC
1973744,610615,831
1974898,570763,476
19751,034,170854,853
19761,179,300988,267
19771,316,7001,079,430
19781,409,6001,157,776
19791,497,6701,251,921
19801,553,8901,297,606
19811,577,3401,300,760
19821,573,9201,303,980
19831,575,0001,268,987
19841,577,1801,333,521
19851,588,5501,328,570
19861,574,0001,328,112
19871,559,1101,353,671
19881,590,7501,371,285
19891,566,9001,396,658
19901,608,6001,429,247
19911,556,5101,388,937
19921,528,9301,359,146
19931,495,0001,330,414
19941,423,0001,267,415
19951,359,4001,210,883
19961,360,1601,225,937
19971,335,0001,186,039
19981,319,000 884,273 *
19991,314,800 861,789 *
20001,312,990 857,475 *
20011,291,000 853,485 *
20021,269,000 854,122 *
20031,250,000 848,163 *
20041,222,100 839,226 *
20051,206,200 820,151 *
20061,242,200 846,181 *
20071,209,640 827,609 *
20081,212,350 825,564 *
20091,151,600 789,116 *
20101,102,670 765,651 *
20111,058,490 730,322 *
20121,011,000 699,202 *
2013 958,700 664,435 *
2014 926,190 652,639 *
2015 899,500 638,169 *
2016 874,100 623,471 *
2017 862,320 612,719 *
2018 871,806 ** 619,591 *
2019 916,160 629,898 *
2020 930,160 620,327 *
2021 930,160 **
2022 900,414 **

I belong to "END ABORTION NOW" run and organized by a network intelligence team.

Abortion is deliberate murder.
 

Judges13:18

Well-known member
There would be ways to verify it was. For example, God could include in the fax an explanation for something in physics something we currently don't understand, with equations and everything. Or, God could say to soak a napkin in water and at a specified time he would set it alight. There's an almost endless list of things God could do in a fax that would confirm it was from Him
How will this make you hate sin and love righteousness?
 
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