There is no Torah without Oral Torah

tbeachhead

Well-known member
How many times are you going to repeat the same bad logic before you realize that you are convincing no one.
Not logic...

This is scripture...read in context...and proving you err in your OP, when you imply that "Oral Torah" is not an oxymoron. It is.

I've tried to help you read, but apparently...you're not going to. That's fine. your claim is still error despite your claim.
 

Bob Dobbalina

Active member
In your opening post you state...

“The PRIMARY purpose of the Talmud is to make obedience to the Written Torah possible. Yes, these interpretations are given by men, but these men have been given their authority by God, and are not to be questioned.”

How do you know “these men have been given their authority by God”?

Was there a historical statement by God or is it just a mythical idea?
I’ll help you out; it’s a completely mythical idea, and heretical besides. Everything he calls oral tradition was spoken against vehemently by Yeshua Hamashiach during His earthly sojourn.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
In your opening post you state...

“The PRIMARY purpose of the Talmud is to make obedience to the Written Torah possible. Yes, these interpretations are given by men, but these men have been given their authority by God, and are not to be questioned.”

How do you know “these men have been given their authority by God”?

Was there a historical statement by God or is it just a mythical idea?
Because the men who are given the authority are LISTED in Deut 17, as is the fact that God is giving them authority. "Go neither to the right nor to the left."
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
I’ll help you out; it’s a completely mythical idea, and heretical besides. Everything he calls oral tradition was spoken against vehemently by Yeshua Hamashiach during His earthly sojourn.
really? then why is Jesus telling the pharisees to observe the basics of the torah jAAAANNNNNDDD Also do the spice tax (which is oral law). matthew 23:23
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
really? then why is Jesus telling the pharisees to observe the basics of the torah jAAAANNNNNDDD Also do the spice tax (which is oral law). matthew 23:23
He tells them to do as they say...and adds the obvious observation that tithing mint and cumin don't come close to what God is seeking...grace, mercy and love. Did you really miss Jesus' point?

Here's what you have missed from Proverbs. "The Word of God is truth. It is a bulwark to those who put their faith in Him. Do not add to His Word, lest you be reproved, and proven a liar."

That's a warning for anyone who believes that they're doing God a favor teaching as doctrines the traditions of man. Jesus was very specific.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
He tells them to do as they say...and adds the obvious observation that tithing mint and cumin don't come close to what God is seeking...grace, mercy and love. Did you really miss Jesus' point?

Here's what you have missed from Proverbs. "The Word of God is truth. It is a bulwark to those who put their faith in Him. Do not add to His Word, lest you be reproved, and proven a liar."

That's a warning for anyone who believes that they're doing God a favor teaching as doctrines the traditions of man. Jesus was very specific.
Not missing the point at all, which is, keep the basics of the Torah AAAAANNNNNDDD observe the oral torah as well. Matthew 23;23
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
Not missing the point at all, which is, keep the basics of the Torah AAAAANNNNNDDD observe the oral torah as well. Matthew 23;23
Funny...to do the latter, you have to ignore the former...that I quoted from proverbs. There is no "and," whatever the number of "a"'s you add...How do you reconcile contradiction? You have added to His Word, and you do not fear being reproved. When you teach as doctrine the traditions of man, according to Isaiah, you draw near with your mouth and your heart is far from Him. Do you need to see chapter and verse?

The Torah has become for you a smörgåsbord where you pick and choose what the "basics" are. Everyone is stuck doing what seems "right in his own eyes."That was a Jewish thing to do by the end of Judges...but it wasn't ever sanctioned.
 
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sk0rpi0n

Active member
Ridiculous. The whole purpose of the oral torah is to making obeying the torah possible. Nice try.

But there are some instances where the oral torah ADDS new rules to the ones in the Torah.

The written torah says to not boil a goat in it's mothers milk
“Thou shalt not boil a kid in his mother’s milk (Exodus 23:19)

But the oral torah says to not eat milk with meat (including chicken). That's not "making obeying the torah possible", it's an addition to the law of the Torah.

Reason : Mixing chicken meat (flesh of a bird) and cheese (made from milk from a cow) in a sandwich does not amount to boiling a goat in its mothers milk (in that you are not cooking the offspring of an animal with the milk of it's mother).
 
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Open Heart

Well-known member
But there are some instances where the oral torah ADDS new rules to the ones in the Torah.

The written torah says to not boil a goat in it's mothers milk
“Thou shalt not boil a kid in his mother’s milk (Exodus 23:19)

But the oral torah says to not eat milk with meat (including chicken). That's not "making obeying the torah possible", it's an addition to the law of the Torah.

Reason : Mixing chicken meat (flesh of a bird) and cheese (made from milk from a cow) in a sandwich does not amount to boiling a goat in its mothers milk (in that you are not cooking the offspring of an animal with the milk of it's mother).
That's not adding a new law -- its interpreting an existing law. Nice try.
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
I was reading this morning somewhere (Chabad, Jewish Virtual Library, Jewish somewhere)
that the Oral law is not from God
and that the from God part was only at Sinai

I previously asked if there was any Jewish Tradition
about the Law being given thru angels (?)
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
I guess that view is not universal within Judaism, bonita.

If the command to do that sort of stuff is from God
are each of the rulings themselves actually from God? or Men?
Let's not quibble. It's Law. I know that you accept Duet 17 as God's word. So please, let's have none of your nonsense.
 

sk0rpi0n

Active member
That's not adding a new law -- its interpreting an existing law.

Sure. It's interpreting an existing law to the point that the "interpretation" has nothing to do with the law but instead adds to it.

It turns "don't cook an animal with it's mothers milk" into "don't eat the flesh of a bird with the milk of a mammal".
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
Sure. It's interpreting an existing law to the point that the "interpretation" has nothing to do with the law but instead adds to it.

It turns "don't cook an animal with it's mothers milk" into "don't eat the flesh of a bird with the milk of a mammal".
Deut 17:8-13 God granted certain men the authority to interpret the law. He said to not even question their decisions. Live with it.
 

sk0rpi0n

Active member
and the Interpretations can change, or be contradictory?
how is that from God?

It's not from God. Apparently, Rabbis have the authority to modify the Laws given by God.

One example is how the prohibition on cooking animals with their mothers milk was modified into a prohibition on eating chicken and cheese sandwiches.

Another example is the Law concerning the Sabbath. In the Torah, gentiles living in Israel had to keep the Sabbath.

“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. (Exodus 20:8-10)

But the Rabbis "interpreted" the Torah to mean they can hire gentiles (i.e., foreigners) to do work that couldn't be done by Jews.

Another example of Rabbis modifying Sabbath Law would be the strings that certain Orthodox Jewish communities tie around their neighborhoods. You see, they have a rule that on Sabbath it's impermissible to carry an object from the inside of the house to the house. But if the string is tied around the neighborhood, the outside is counted as part of the "inside" of the house!!!!! And thus, people are allowed to carry objects in and out of the house without breaking the Sabbath! LOL.
 
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