There is no Torah without Oral Torah

tbeachhead

Well-known member
Ridiculous. The whole purpose of the oral torah is to making obeying the torah possible. Nice try.
Guess Isaiah was wrong, eh? I know...you're quoting the oral Torah. I'm only quoting the Tenakh: Isaiah 29:13Therefore the Lord said: “These people draw near to Me with their mouths and honor Me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me. Their worship of Me is but rules taught by men. 14Therefore I will again confound these people with wonder upon wonder. The wisdom of the wise will vanish, and the intelligence of the intelligent will be hidden.”…

Why do you think the rules and commandments of men taught as doctrine is good? "In vain do they worship me!" What do you think that means, exactly? How vital and alive is the worship that men made up...because there was nothing left of the tools Moses left?
 

American Gothic

Active member
modifying Sabbath Law
I view the original intent of the command to be "stay home and rest" and don't engage in regular weekly work/business.
I understand that as Culture develops, certain things will be ruled on and codified or become habbit

just from an outsider perspective -
some of what is done is really beautiful (candle lighting, prayers, etc.)
and it's amazing that Jews all over the world are doing similar stuff at same relative time
and have been for Millenia
(just been watching The Chosen, so can't say my reference is completely accurate)

some of the "build a fence around the Law" maybe a bit beyond the original purpose of the Law
in intent and attitude towards it's necessity, effectiveness, and universal application among Jews
 
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Open Heart

Well-known member
Guess Isaiah was wrong, eh? I know...you're quoting the oral Torah. I'm only quoting the Tenakh: Isaiah 29:13Therefore the Lord said: “These people draw near to Me with their mouths and honor Me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me. Their worship of Me is but rules taught by men. 14Therefore I will again confound these people with wonder upon wonder. The wisdom of the wise will vanish, and the intelligence of the intelligent will be hidden.”…

Why do you think the rules and commandments of men taught as doctrine is good? "In vain do they worship me!" What do you think that means, exactly? How vital and alive is the worship that men made up...because there was nothing left of the tools Moses left?
You have a profound misunderstanding of Isaiah. Isaiah makes it clear that God does not want our worship if we turn around and sin, such as forgetting to care for the poor. If we don't care for the poor, then God "doesn't want our stinking sacrifices." That does NOT mean that sacrifices are not commanded by God. You cannot use Isaiah to say that worship is not important.

But my guess is that this is going to go right over your head.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
You have a profound misunderstanding of Isaiah. Isaiah makes it clear that God does not want our worship if we turn around and sin, such as forgetting to care for the poor. If we don't care for the poor, then God "doesn't want our stinking sacrifices." That does NOT mean that sacrifices are not commanded by God. You cannot use Isaiah to say that worship is not important.

But my guess is that this is going to go right over your head.
You do become more condescending in every post. Do you even see that?

"Their worship of Me is but rules taught by men." The rest you have made up to excuse your own claim. I'm not the one having difficulty reading...but those with the difficulty also rejected Messiah when He came, for the same reason: He did not obey their made up rules.

The rest of this passage is likewise strident and clear: 14Therefore I will again confound these people with wonder upon wonder. The wisdom of the wise will vanish, and the intelligence of the intelligent will be hidden.”…He's not talking to the Goyim here. He's talking to Jews who made stuff up, and declared it "Oral Torah" and "doctrine." When you have to make things up, and follow what has been invented...your own wisdom fades when a love for the truth is restored.
 
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American Gothic

Active member
Even under the Noahide law, there is the stipulation to establish courts of justice
the nations could add Human rulings and rules, but they shouldn't contradict or negate the intent of the basic commands from God

it looks like similar charge in Deut. 17
that seems to be the complaint in Mark 7
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
"Their worship of Me is but rules taught by men."
If you read this verse at face value, it says that offering sacrifices in teh temple is a "rule taught by men." So you therefore think that the laws given in the Torah to sacrifice were "rules taught by men" rather than God?
 

American Gothic

Active member
Do you not believe that it was God who gave the Law to Moses for Israel? "and the LORD said unto Moses, speak to the Children of Israel saying..."
I believe the men who sometimes sit in Moses' seat in positions of judgement concerning Mosaic law are just Men, not God

isn't there Talmud musing about them getting one over on God and Him being impressed or something? pffft AS IF LOLZ

Hey OH
in Judaism, what is the Purpose of Bible/Torah/Talmud Study?
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
I believe the men who sometimes sit in Moses' seat in positions of judgement concerning Mosaic law are just Men, not God

isn't there Talmud musing about them getting one over on God and Him being impressed or something? pffft AS IF LOLZ

Hey OH
in Judaism, what is the Purpose of Bible/Torah/Talmud Study?
The purpose is to more fully understand and thereby obey the Law, which gives us a better life and brings us closer to God.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
I've never had a Rabbinic/Pharisaic Jew say it was to get to know the Person behind all the Words.
The relationship is assumed. The Jewish God is a personal God, which means we can know him. Probably prayer is more important to cultivating a relationship with God than obedience, though prayer , study, and obedience are all three necessary.
 
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Tanachreader

Well-known member
The relationship is assumed. The Jewish God is a personal God, which means we can know him. Probably prayer is more important to cultivating a relationship with God than obedience, though prayer , study, and obedience are all three necessary.
Do know anyone who knows God.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
If you read this verse at face value, it says that offering sacrifices in the temple is a "rule taught by men." So you therefore think that the laws given in the Torah to sacrifice were "rules taught by men" rather than God?
If you read your post...you will notice that you are adding words to what Isaiah wrote, changing his meaning to conform to your misunderstanding. That's his point.

It does not say "...that offering sacrifices in the temple is a 'rule taught by men.'" Your conclusion is not close. The law given in the Torah is the Law. What rabbinical Judaism has added, the "oral Torah" is added...and taught and enforced through the ages by men rather than God, being vindicated by their antiquity alone.

And you have illustrated it perfectly.
 

American Gothic

Active member
I can see the rulers asking God for help in their rulings - they should
but if the rulings themselves were from or of God
then they would never be wrong
and I just don't see that in the history of Israel
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
Do know anyone who knows God.
Can the finite comprehend the infinite? Nevertheless; just as a toddler can have a reltationship with their Father, even though they understand very practically nothing about adult life, so we ourselves can have a relationship with God. Yes, I do know people who have very deep prayer lives, and I would say that constitutes a relationship with God.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
If you read your post...you will notice that you are adding words to what Isaiah wrote, changing his meaning to conform to your misunderstanding. That's his point.

It does not say "...that offering sacrifices in the temple is a 'rule taught by men.'" Your conclusion is not close. The law given in the Torah is the Law. What rabbinical Judaism has added, the "oral Torah" is added...and taught and enforced through the ages by men rather than God, being vindicated by their antiquity alone.

And you have illustrated it perfectly.
For the prophet and the Jews of his age, worship WAS the temple sacrifices. Try again.
 

American Gothic

Active member
It doesn't work that way.
so IYO
Every judicial decision those in that position in Israel throughout their entire history has been correct, and what God wanted?
That goes against every precedent I see concerning the Law in the Hebrew scriptures - Israel fails a lot there.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
For the prophet and the Jews of his age, worship WAS the temple sacrifices. Try again.
You're revealing your own ignorance of culture...and Isaiah...and explaining why you have difficulty reading Isaiah, and why you project your own difficulty onto others.

Just take a moment to read just the first two chapters of Isaiah...that's his culture.

"Worship" as Isaiah described it in the passage you cannot understand was happening all over Israel, both North and South, and far worse up North where Elijah and Elishah had previously stood watch, and where Jehoshaphat had previously made disastrous alliance.

That's what Isaiah was facing. Pride dictated doctrine as it does to this day. Not God's ways nor His Word. Those in charge were calling the shots as it seemed right in their own eyes. Nothing has changed, and nothing changed after the temple fell...someone had to explain why Messiah, whom all were expecting had "passed them by..." and what they were to do now, without a temple or a priesthood...or prophets. That explanation became "sacred" as it steeped in ever increasing antiquity...to where "antiquity" actually became synonymous with "inspired".

For a prophet like Isaiah...Ahaz was also "a Jew of his age." Worship consisted of burning his sons on the altar at Tophet in the Valley of Hinnom. "Gehenna" is derived from the acts of the Jews of Isaiah's day, and Jeremiah spoke clearly of Tophet.
 
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