There is no Torah without Oral Torah

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
If you read your post...you will notice that you are adding words to what Isaiah wrote, changing his meaning to conform to your misunderstanding. That's his point.

It does not say "...that offering sacrifices in the temple is a 'rule taught by men.'" Your conclusion is not close. The law given in the Torah is the Law. What rabbinical Judaism has added, the "oral Torah" is added...and taught and enforced through the ages by men rather than God, being vindicated by their antiquity alone.

And you have illustrated it perfectly.
Hey TBH, how do you know how to pronunce the Hebrew letters, what they are, how to pronounce Hebrew words, etc.?
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
Hey TBH, how do you know how to pronunce the Hebrew letters, what they are, how to pronounce Hebrew words, etc.?
With respect, I'm not sure I understand your point...It seems non sequitur to me.

Do you suggest that Language amounts to Torah? The letters of the Roman alphabet in France are not pronounced at all as they are in Quebec.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
With respect, I'm not sure I understand your point...It seems non sequitur to me.
On what basis do you know what an aleph is, the sounds if makes, how to pronounce Hebrew words?

Do you suggest that Language amounts to Torah?
How do you know how to read Torah?

The letters of the Roman alphabet in France are not pronounced at all as they are in Quebec.
I asked about Hebrew. Stay focused.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
On what basis do you know what an aleph is, the sounds if makes, how to pronounce Hebrew words?


How do you know how to read Torah?


I asked about Hebrew. Stay focused.
This is totally non sequitur. Is this some twisted appeal to authority?

Does Hebrew know no accent? Do Yiddish speakers from Romania pronounce the aleph the same way Jews born in Israel do? How do you know you're pronouncing the Aleph as David did? Or Moses? Can you even pronounce the Tetragrammaton as David did in all his songs? Or as God did on the Holy Mountain?

Stay focused: Why do you think this is a useful strand?
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
This is totally non sequitur. Is this some twisted appeal to authority?
What is the title of the OP?

Does Hebrew know no accent? Do Yiddish speakers from Romania pronounce the aleph the same way Jews born in Israel do?
You know all of this based on the Oral tradition. Why isn't an aleph a bet, or pronounced the same, etc.?

How do you know you're pronouncing the Aleph as David did? Or Moses? Can you even pronounce the Tetragrammaton as David did in all his songs? Or as God did on the Holy Mountain?
This is a good question. The Yemenite Jews have the oldest tradition going back to temple times. Yes, we know how to pronounce the name.

Stay focused: Why do you think this is a useful strand?
Because your Bible is based on the Oral tradition, law. Rotfl...
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
What is the title of the OP?
And?


You know all of this based on the Oral tradition. Why isn't an aleph a bet, or pronounced the same, etc.?
Are you asking how language works?


This is a good question. The Yemenite Jews have the oldest tradition going back to temple times. Yes, we know how to pronounce the name.
Proof? You can have none.


Because your Bible is based on the Oral tradition, law. Rotfl...
Your Torah is written. Isaiah spoke of what your traditions added. It was not Torah.

Do you, like the proselyte Open Heart, take issue with Isaiah?

And still you do not explain why a letter of the Hebrew alphabet is important to a discussion of the integrity of a so-called "oral Torah."
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
Do you, like the proselyte Open Heart, take issue with Isaiah
Do not misrepresent me. I NEVER said I had an issue with Isaiah. I simply interpret the verse differently than you, and asked you if YOU had issues of your own with scripture.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
You can't understand language without the letters, vowels, etc., and the tradition on how to read it.

How do you teach French?

Are you asking how language works?
See above.

Proof? You can have none.
Rotfl... see above.

Your Torah is written. Isaiah spoke of what your traditions added. It was not Torah.
See above. The Bible in your hands is based on oral Torah, law, traditions.

Thinking otherwise is ignorance.

Speaking of traditions of men, that sounds like the last supper command, celebrating Jesus' birthday on Xmas, Easter 🐣, Santa Claus, Sunday worship, the trinity, the two natures of Jesus, virgin birth, etc.

Do you, like the proselyte Open Heart, take issue with Isaiah?
See above.

And still you do not explain why a letter of the Hebrew alphabet is important to a discussion of the integrity of a so-called "oral Torah."
See above. Why don't you tell us about the opening letter in Genesis/Bereshit, and how you know what it is and how to pronounce it? Rotfl...
 
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tbeachhead

Well-known member
Do not misrepresent me. I NEVER said I had an issue with Isaiah. I simply interpret the verse differently than you, and asked you if YOU had issues of your own with scripture.
You said, "If you read this verse at face value, it says that offering sacrifices in the temple is a "rule taught by men." So you therefore think that the laws given in the Torah to sacrifice were "rules taught by men" rather than God?"

The verse you take issue with is Is 29:13 13Therefore the Lord said: “These people draw near to Me with their mouths and honor Me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me. Their worship of Me is but rules taught by men. Reading the verse at face value, what you say it says has no bearing at all on what Isaiah actually says.

You are taking issue with Isaiah, and inventing things he did not say so the Tenakh will fit your own misunderstanding. It's there for anyone to see.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
You said, "If you read this verse at face value, it says that offering sacrifices in the temple is a "rule taught by men." So you therefore think that the laws given in the Torah to sacrifice were "rules taught by men" rather than God?"

The verse you take issue with is Is 29:13 13Therefore the Lord said: “These people draw near to Me with their mouths and honor Me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me. Their worship of Me is but rules taught by men. Reading the verse at face value, what you say it says has no bearing at all on what Isaiah actually says.

You are taking issue with Isaiah, and inventing things he did not say so the Tenakh will fit your own misunderstanding. It's there for anyone to see.
And none of what I said indicates I have a problem with the Isaiah verse. Only that you are taking it literally and I am not.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
You can't understand language without the letters, vowels, etc., and the tradition on how to read it.
That's nonsense. There are languages to this day that are spoken only, and not written, as there are ancient languages that can be read...but the spoken must be guessed, because no one has spoken the language for millennia. The French language, read and spoken in Trois Rivières, Québec bears very little audible resemblance to the French spoken in la Touraine in France, yet, in writing, it's very much the same language, governed by the Académie Française. Vowels will always change regionally. "I" in the northern US is [ai], but simply [a] in the south.

How do you teach French?
The same way I learned English...the human psyche is a language learning machine.

See above.
You said nothing pertinent.


Rotfl... see above.
You're easy to self-satisfy, aren't you? You said nothing pertinent.


See above. The Bible in your hands is based on oral Torah, law, traditions. Thinking otherwise is ignorance.
No...the Bible in my hands was first written. That's what distinguishes it from the doctrines and traditions you have made up and added to Torah, nullifying Torah in part, as Isaiah observed correctly.

Speaking of traditions of men, that sounds like the last supper command, celebrating Jesus' birthday on Xmas, Easter 🐣, Santa Claus, Sunday worship, the trinity, the two natures of Jesus, virgin birth, etc.
LOL This is quite a smörgåsbord...Dates and seasons are entirely arbitrary. Santa sells CocaCola. Easter is a disgusting misnomer. The French still call the celebration of the resurrection Pesach, as it should be. As to the Trinity, we've been over it, and will continue...not three persons, but three, Father Word and Spirit, Who created the heavens and the earth, entirely One and unique, Who is together eternally as One and unique echad. The Virgin birth was prophesied, as inconvenient as it is for you, and as vehemently as you MUST deny Isaiah's clear meaning, and of course the Word made flesh to dwell among us is likewise prophesied as Emmanuel.


See above.
You said nothing...go back over how you avoid answering. I'm wondering why you have such a difficult time answering questions. Do you have problems with Isaiah's prophecy, charging you with worshiping god according to the made up doctrines and traditions of man? Your religion was spoken of hundreds of years before you chose to reject Messiah.
See above. Why don't you tell us about the opening letter in Genesis/Bereshit, and how you know what it is and how to pronounce it? Rotfl...
Suppose you elaborate :eek: We could start a new sacred tradition.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
That's nonsense. There are languages to this day that are spoken only, and not written, as there are ancient languages that can be read...but the spoken must be guessed, because no one has spoken the language for millennia. The French language, read and spoken in Trois Rivières, Québec bears very little audible resemblance to the French spoken in la Touraine in France, yet, in writing, it's very much the same language, governed by the Académie Française. Vowels will always change regionally. "I" in the northern US is [ai], but simply [a] in the south.
And we're not speaking of those languages, only Hebrew which has a written form. So, this answer was DOA.

The same way I learned English...the human psyche is a language learning machine.
Nope. We're did you get the rules for language, grammar, etc.?

You said nothing pertinent.
Because you can't answer?

You're easy to self-satisfy, aren't you? You said nothing pertinent.
See above.

No...the Bible in my hands was first written. That's what distinguishes it from the doctrines and traditions you have made up and added to Torah, nullifying Torah in part, as Isaiah observed correctly.
What rules were followed in writing the Tanakh?

LOL This is quite a smörgåsbord...Dates and seasons are entirely arbitrary. Santa sells CocaCola. Easter is a disgusting misnomer. The French still call the celebration of the resurrection Pesach, as it should be. As to the Trinity, we've been over it, and will continue...not three persons, but three, Father Word and Spirit, Who created the heavens and the earth, entirely One and unique, Who is together eternally as One and unique chad. The Virgin birth was prophesied, as inconvenient as it is for you, and as vehemently as you MUST deny Isaiah's clear meaning, and of course the Word made flesh to dwell among us is likewise prophesied as Emmanuel.
Aah, yes. You cry about mans traditions and evade yours.

You said nothing...go back over how you avoid answering. I'm wondering why you have such a difficult time answering questions. Do you have problems with Isaiah's prophecy, charging you with worshiping god according to the made up doctrines and traditions of man? Your religion was spoken of hundreds of years before you chose to reject Messiah.
Suppose you elaborate :eek: We could start a new sacred tradition.
Rotfl... why the Rabbit trails?
 

sk0rpi0n

Member
One Rabbi by himself does not have this power. How little you understand Jewish law.

You said earlier that God granted rabbis the authority to interpret the law and that their decisions should not be questioned.

So why are you questioning the decision of that rabbi who says it's okay for same-sex couples to marry and adopt children?
 

sk0rpi0n

Member
I view the original intent of the command to be "stay home and rest" and don't engage in regular weekly work/business.

Yes. The purpose of the Sabbath was to abstain from activities related to work and business. It was like fasting but instead of abstaining from food, you abstain from business related work.

Proof of this is found in Nehemiah 13.

In those days I saw in Judah people who were treading wine presses on the Sabbath, and bringing in sacks of grain and loading them on donkeys, as well as wine, grapes, figs, and every kind of load, and they were bringing them into Jerusalem on the Sabbath day. So I admonished them on the day they sold food. 16 Also people of Tyre were living there who imported fish and all kinds of merchandise, and sold them to the sons of Judah on the Sabbath, even in Jerusalem. 17 Then I reprimanded the nobles of Judah and said to them, “What is this evil thing that you are doing, by profaning the Sabbath day? 18 Did your fathers not do the same, so that our God brought on us and on this city all this trouble? Yet you are adding to the wrath against Israel by profaning the Sabbath.” (Nehemiah 13:15-18)

Those are all business related activities.
 

American Gothic

Active member
Those are all business related activities.
What about picking up sticks? Numbers 15
that was kinda harsh
not saying God was wrong, but even the Sabbath command (or any of the basic 10 for that matter)
can potentially be a life and death issue

Christians saying they keep the 10 commandments or even the Sermon on the Mount
seem a bit misguided to Me
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
You said earlier that God granted rabbis the authority to interpret the law and that their decisions should not be questioned.

So why are you questioning the decision of that rabbi who says it's okay for same-sex couples to marry and adopt children?
The context she gave I believe is with respect to Rabbi's that adhere to the Oral and Written Torah. I don't believe the case you cited falls in that realm.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
You said earlier that God granted rabbis the authority to interpret the law and that their decisions should not be questioned.

So why are you questioning the decision of that rabbi who says it's okay for same-sex couples to marry and adopt children?
Rabbis, plural. Not individual rabbis. I respect my own rabbi, who is enormously educated on halakha and who is the first one I go to if I have a question. But she can be wrong on some things. Her pronouncement as an individual rabbis is simply not on the same authoritative level as, say, the Sanhedrin.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
He was collecting the sticks to sell them as firewood. It was a business related activity.
You are adding to the text. It doesn't give a reason why he was gathering wood, which means the reason is irrelevant. It is far more likely that he was gathering wood to make a fire. But again, it doesn't really say. Here is a discussion of the possible reasons that gathering wood was a violation of the Shabbat: https://www.thetorah.com/article/what-melacha-did-the-wood-gatherer-violate
 
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