There is no Torah without Oral Torah

[sk0rpi0n]

You are adding to the text. It doesn't give a reason why he was gathering wood, which means the reason is irrelevant. It is far more likely that he was gathering wood to make a fire. But again, it doesn't really say. Here is a discussion of the possible reasons that gathering wood was a violation of the Shabbat: https://www.thetorah.com/article/what-melacha-did-the-wood-gatherer-violate

So his picking up wood didn't break the sabbath but his intending to use them for a fire did? In other words he was killed before he actually lit the fire! I don't think that's what happened.

Since the text just says he was arrested when he was found collecting wood, then it's far far more likely that he was guilty of working, (i.e., engaging in a money making activity).

The Biblical definition of "profaning the Sabbath" is to engage in a money making activity. That is proven in Nehemiah 13:15-18, where Nehemiah witnesses winemakers and food merchants going about their business, and asks them “What is this evil thing that you are doing, by profaning the Sabbath day?

That is also proven in Amos 8:5 where the wicked are addressed as a people who ask “When will the Sabbath end, that we may offer wheat for sale?", i.e., they were waiting for the Sabbath to end so they could go back to earning money by selling wheat.

 

[Jewjitzu]

So his picking up wood didn't break the sabbath but his intending to use them for a fire did? In other words he was killed before he actually lit the fire! I don't think that's what happened.

Since the text just says he was arrested when he was found collecting wood, then it's far far more likely that he was guilty of working, (i.e., engaging in a money making activity).

The Biblical definition of "profaning the Sabbath" is to engage in a money making activity. That is proven in Nehemiah 13:15-18, where Nehemiah witnesses winemakers and food merchants going about their business, and asks them “What is this evil thing that you are doing, by profaning the Sabbath day?

That is also proven in Amos 8:5 where the wicked are addressed as a people who ask “When will the Sabbath end, that we may offer wheat for sale?", i.e., they were waiting for the Sabbath to end so they could go back to earning money by selling wheat.

No doubt your issues above are a concern, but so is lighting a fire. But the second issue, fire, is a separate concern not discussed here.

Exodus 35:3
Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day.

We are told Tzelophehad died for his own sin, Numbers 27:3. Numbers 15:32-36 says he was gathering wood. So, I'd have to agree with you here.

 

[Open Heart]

So his picking up wood didn't break the sabbath but his intending to use them for a fire did? In other words he was killed before he actually lit the fire! I don't think that's what happened.

I didn't say this. Either discuss fairly, or don't talk to me at all. I have no patience for games.

What I said, and I said it expressly, was that the text doesn't give the reasons for why it broke the sabbath to pick up wood.

Since the text just says he was arrested when he was found collecting wood, then it's far far more likely that he was guilty of working, (i.e., engaging in a money making activity).

That is you adding to the text. The Torah says nothing about money making activities as a definition for work on the sabbath.

The Torah simply uses the word melacha, work. Since it does not define it, we are left to go to the levites and judges for interpretation (Deuteronomy 17:8-13). These have defined work as those 39 labors that were done to build the Tablernacle, since work on the Tabernacle stopped on the Shabbat. Some of these melachot were paying jobs, and some were not.

The Biblical definition of "profaning the Sabbath" is to engage in a money making activity. That is proven in Nehemiah 13:15-18, where Nehemiah witnesses winemakers and food merchants going about their business, and asks them “What is this evil thing that you are doing, by profaning the Sabbath day?

Like I said, some of the 39 melachot are paying positions and some are not. It is a good general rule of thumb not to go into your job, but there is much that is "work" that pays nothing.

That is also proven in Amos 8:5 where the wicked are addressed as a people who ask “When will the Sabbath end, that we may offer wheat for sale?", i.e., they were waiting for the Sabbath to end so they could go back to earning money by selling wheat.j

Again, an example of melacha can be either business or non-business. Your LIMITING work to business is NOT warranted from these verses.

 

[tbeachhead]

And we're not speaking of those languages, only Hebrew which has a written form. So, this answer was DOA.
Nope. We're did you get the rules for language, grammar, etc.?

The language makes the rules...the linguist observes the rules of language, and transcribes them. What's your point?

What are you trying to say of "Oral Torah" the even supersedes Moses?

Because you can't answer?

Because when I answer you go back to your stereotypical response.

See above.

Good idea.

What rules were followed in writing the Tanakh?

"Write what you see and hear."

Aah, yes. You cry about mans traditions and evade yours.

What is this rabbit trail? I don't evade anything. I live in society that celebrates dates and seasons. There are no Roman traditions/inventions that are sacred or even particularly Christian. The 25th of December is a convenience to celebrate the unique virgin birth of your Messiah, according to the scripture. That's an event that, like passover, is worth remembering. Doesn't matter what day of the year. The odds are very great that this historic event did not happen anywhere near that date. It's a great excuse for families to get together and celebrate family. The druidic goddess's name chosen by the Church of England to replace the celebration of the resurrection at pesach is one of the most egregious choices made in the English language. It's fortunate that this mistake was not the choice in other languages. The French still call it Pesach (Pâques). Dates and times and seasons are all transient, and Paul makes it clear: we have no obligation to dates, times and seasons. Traditions that nullify the word of God are proscribed.

Rotfl... why the Rabbit trails?

Umm...Did you forget what the claim of the OP was? We're still refuting the claim. "Oral Torah" is an oxymoron.

 

[Open Heart]

What are you trying to say of "Oral Torah" the even supersedes Moses?

The whole purpose of the Oral Torah is to make observing the Torah possible. For example, in the written Torah God commands Israel to slaughter animals for meat in a particualr way, but doesn't specify what that way is. To know what that way is, you have to access Oral Torah.

Another example. The written Torah says to rest from work on the sabbath, but never specifies what is meant by work. So to understand waht exactly is meant, you have to access Oral Torah.

Antoher example. Written commands us to bind the law upon our arms and our foreheads, but this is vague, what does it mean? To understand what exactly it means, you have to go to Oral Torah.

 

[Jewjitzu]

The language makes the rules...the linguist observes the rules of language, and transcribes them. What's your point?

Really? So language appeared on the scene by itself? I don't think so. There must be a tradition on how to understand the spoken language, verbal and written.

What are you trying to say of "Oral Torah" the even supersedes Moses?

Did I say that? What is written down must have a tradition on how to understand it.

Because when I answer you go back to your stereotypical response.

Which is you can't answer and avoid.

Good idea.

See above again.

"Write what you see and hear."

Really? How do you see a comma, period, etc.?

What is this rabbit trail? I don't evade anything. I live in society that celebrates dates and seasons. There are no Roman traditions/inventions that are sacred or even particularly Christian. The 25th of December is a convenience to celebrate the unique virgin birth of your Messiah, according to the scripture. That's an event that, like passover, is worth remembering. Doesn't matter what day of the year. The odds are very great that this historic event did not happen anywhere near that date. It's a great excuse for families to get together and celebrate family. The druidic goddess's name chosen by the Church of England to replace the celebration of the resurrection at pesach is one of the most egregious choices made in the English language. It's fortunate that this mistake was not the choice in other languages. The French still call it Pesach (Pâques). Dates and times and seasons are all transient, and Paul makes it clear: we have no obligation to dates, times and seasons. Traditions that nullify the word of God are proscribed.

So, these are the traditions of men. Too bad.

Umm...Did you forget what the claim of the OP was? We're still refuting the claim. "Oral Torah" is an oxymoron.

Which it isn't, as you can't even read this post without some tradition on language and writing.

 

[tbeachhead]

Really? So language appeared on the scene by itself? I don't think so. There must be a tradition on how to understand the spoken language, verbal and written.

Are you being serious?

All evidence points to spontaneous generation. Language did not originally evolve from a regular series of grunts a groans and random tonalities. When God spoke, Adam understood and spoke back in the same language.

Did I say that? What is written down must have a tradition on how to understand it.

You are serious. Is that because the meaning of what is said changes for you, when your unbelief is more compelling than faith? No. It's enough that what is written is understood...Otherwise your misunderstanding becomes a tradition that must be explained by a supplemental reader like you have, that helps you explain away the Torah and Messiah.

Which is you can't answer and avoid.

See above.

See above again.

Good idea. Again.

Really? How do you see a comma, period, etc.?

There were none. They are always interpretive. And you knew that...there were no diacritical marks in the earliest writings either. Just raw consonants. Part of the miracle of the Tanakh is the degree to which there is agreement in that which is written. The Quran did not even come close...they burned anything that differed from the copy that had been chosen from the diversity.

So, these are the traditions of men. Too bad.

Why? And who cares? They are neither sacred nor instructive in nature...like a birthday. When you try to defend your inventions because we have holidays, you fail on two counts: Your religion has been relegated to ancient invention when you were forced to stray from Moses by circumstances brought on by the sin of Israel, and the Christian faith stems from a known moment in history that vindicates the Words of your Messiah and that would redeem you all from that same sin, as soon as you look on Him Whom you have pierced.

Which it isn't, as you can't even read this post without some tradition on language and writing.

When you relegate "Oral Torah" to common grammar and linguistic usage, you kind of neuter the claim...don't you? I'd love to hear OH say, "I was only talking about the alphabet, and grammar when I said, 'Oral Torah.'"

 

[Jewjitzu]

Are you being serious?

All evidence points to spontaneous generation. Language did not originally evolve from a regular series of grunts a groans and random tonalities. When God spoke, Adam understood and spoke back in the same language.

My focus is written language. That didn't show up spontaneously and requires a tradition behind it. That's where oral law comes in.

You are serious. Is that because the meaning of what is said changes for you, when your unbelief is more compelling than faith? No. It's enough that what is written is understood...Otherwise your misunderstanding becomes a tradition that must be explained by a supplemental reader like you have, that helps you explain away the Torah and Messiah.

Again, without a written tradition on how to write and then interpret what you're reading you have nothing. Your Bible was given to you by us and you follow our tradition by default.

Ironically, you can't read Hebrew and then want to lecture on how to understand things.

See above.
Good idea. Again.
There were none. They are always interpretive. And you knew that...there were no diacritical marks in the earliest writings either. Just raw consonants. Part of the miracle of the Tanakh is the degree to which there is agreement in that which is written. The Quran did not even come close...they burned anything that differed from the copy that had been chosen from the diversity.

Yep, the oral tradition maintained this agreement.

Why? And who cares? They are neither sacred nor instructive in nature...like a birthday. When you try to defend your inventions because we have holidays, you fail on two counts: Your religion has been relegated to ancient invention when you were forced to stray from Moses

The traditions of men are yours and from your religion. Ours comes from the authority in Tanakh given by God Himself. Read Deut 17.

by circumstances brought on by the sin of Israel, and the Christian faith stems from a known moment in history that vindicates the Words of your Messiah and that would redeem you all from that same sin, as soon as you look on Him Whom you have pierced.

No, the Christian church is filling prophecy from Daniel 7:25, changing laws, festivals, the religion. Its the beast in lamb's clothing

When you relegate "Oral Torah" to common grammar and linguistic usage, you kind of neuter the claim...don't you? I'd love to hear OH say, "I was only talking about the alphabet, and grammar when I said, 'Oral Torah.'"

My starting point for argument is that you've already accepted the oral Torah by accepting the Tanakh you have in your hands today. It's hypocritical to say otherwise. We just start from there and follow through.

 

[Open Heart]

Are you being serious?

All evidence points to spontaneous generation. Language did not originally evolve from a regular series of grunts a groans and random tonalities. When God spoke, Adam understood and spoke back in the same language.

The following is an incredibly good discussion of the evolution of human language by the Linguistic Society.

FAQ: How Did Language Begin? | Linguistic Society of America

www.linguisticsociety.org

 

[Bob Dobbalina]

When one cedes godly authority to humans, there’s no end to the depravity that will ensue.
History has proven this to be true.
I post this for the lurker(s) who need a push to consider this thesis and its implications, not for the scholars who post. They are generally quite satisfied to follow the widest, shortest path.

 

[tbeachhead]

The following is an incredibly good discussion of the evolution of human language by the Linguistic Society.

FAQ: How Did Language Begin? | Linguistic Society of America

www.linguisticsociety.org

It says, "No one knows..." and there is no possible evidence available. the Bible makes it clear. Language and all communication was spontaneously generated upon the creation of Adam. The Word was also in us, and with us, and made us.

When I was in college, we were studying linguistics, and there were fascinating papers being written then tracing all languages back to an original source. There are still those who are trying to infer from all languages, the first language. Here's a great article that speaks to that endeavor. https://www.dictionary.com/e/origin/