There is none righteous- oops

Newbirth said:
So where does the scripture say Enoch stood before God? You are implying something that is not written in the scripture. One cannot assume or pretend to answer what happened to or where Enoch actually went. It just is not written.
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Yes. From just that the two verses Gen 5:24 and Heb 11:5, we could not say where Enoch went.
But if we take everything we know in scripture about where people go after leaving earth, we do have scripture to stand on
 
Alexander the adequate said:
Yes I can. Two places in particular. One is John 14:17 where Jesus told the disciples that the Spirit was with them but would be in them (referencing pentecost)
Luke 24:49 Jesus referred to the promise of the Father at Pentecost( the indwelling of the Spirit received then)
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"the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you." (Jn. 14:17 NKJ)

"Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high." (Lk. 24:49 NKJ)

So, when you read these verses, you clearly understand it to say "living people began to be indwelt at Pentecost."

That's interesting.

Do you think that by Jesus saying the Spirit merely dwells with his disciples at that particular time, that necessarily and clearly extrapolates out to "No one else was ever indwelt at any time before then." I wonder how you derive that universal meaning from a limited case?

And when you read "I send the Promise of My Father," instead of thinking Jesus is sending a particular promise at a particular time, you would instead read that as a clear universal declaration that Christ never indwelt anyone before this particular promise was sent?

Perhaps you could see how I struggle to see how you "connect the dots," when the dots seem so very far apart, in fact, some dots don't even seem to be there to connect.
 
Dizerner said:
"the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you." (Jn. 14:17 NKJ)

"Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high." (Lk. 24:49 NKJ)

So, when you read these verses, you clearly understand it to say "living people began to be indwelt at Pentecost."

That's interesting.

Do you think that by Jesus saying the Spirit merely dwells with his disciples at that particular time, that necessarily and clearly extrapolates out to "No one else was ever indwelt at any time before then." I wonder how you derive that universal meaning from a limited case?

And when you read "I send the Promise of My Father," instead of thinking Jesus is sending a particular promise at a particular time, you would instead read that as a clear universal declaration that Christ never indwelt anyone before this particular promise was sent?

Perhaps you could see how I struggle to see how you "connect the dots," when the dots seem so very far apart, in fact, some dots don't even seem to be there to connect.
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You struggle is because you are putting the disciples in a special category, as opposed to them being the first fruits of Christianity who showed the way for the rest of us.
Pretty sure you understood the two references.
To the contrary of what you are saying, you would need to prove by scripture that the disciples were the only ones this referred to, which starts out being difficult because in addition to the 12, there were about 110 more disciples and over 3000 people in the crowd that were recipients
 
Leatherneck0311 said:
The word in Hebrew 11:6 translated literally means taken from earth to heaven.
Heb 11:5 - By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that hepleased God.
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Yes, and the sun, moon, and stars are in the heavens. There are things that we just do not know. Making assumptions is not the way to go.

Leatherneck0311 said:
Don’t let systematic theology poison and corrupt a clear teaching from scripture God is way to big to be put in a box of man’s creation.
Translated
TRANSLA'TED, participle passive Conveyed from one place to another; removed to heaven without dying; rendered into another language. https://kingjamesbibledictionary.com/Dictionary/translated
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The clear scripture is what is written. We do not assume what is not written and claim it is written.
 
Alexander the adequate said:
In Gen 5:24 NASB "God took him" means just that, take or carry away
In Heb 11:5 NASB "taken up" means transfer or change

Neither the Hebrew nor the Greek carry the idea of Heaven, that is an assumption
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Why is it you aren’t “seeing” this:Heb 11:5 - By faith Enochwas translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God
 
Leatherneck0311 said:
Why is it you aren’t “seeing” this:Heb 11:5 - By faith Enochwas translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God
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How funny you are? I texted what the Greek word in Heb 11:5 means, then you ask me why I am not seeing it?
What more can I see? The New American Standard does not use the king James word "translated" but the Greek word is the same for both, metatithemi. This Greek word means to transfer or change. The word has nothing to say about where a thing is transferred TO or it might be changed TO, You assume that Enoch went to be with God, but you have nothing in the scripture that says he went to be with God.
I showed the meaning of the Hebrew word in Genesis as well and it means take away or carry away, but does not include the idea of where.
 
Leatherneck0311 said:
I reached that conclusion because God translated Enoch and “ took him” . How did you NOT reach that conclusion ?
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For me, your approach to interpretation in this specific case is not based on the wording, but on a preconceived idea.
I think you assume Enoch went to be in God's presence, therefore Enoch must have been indwelt by Christ. Yet the OT and NT verses do NOT say where Enoch went, and you speak as if it says in black and white that he went to heaven.
 
Newbirth said:
Yes, and the sun, moon, and stars are in the heavens. There are things that we just do not know. Making assumptions is not the way to go.


The clear scripture is what is written. We do not assume what is not written and claim it is written.
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A note about the word "heaven." The Bible uses that word three ways. One is where the birds fly, A scond is what you refer to where the stars are (usually plural "heavens") And the third is where God resides.
Now you are saying you think that Enoch is somewhere in the physical universe where the stars are?
 
Alexander the adequate said:
How funny you are? I texted what the Greek word in Heb 11:5 means, then you ask me why I am not seeing it?
What more can I see? The New American Standard does not use the king James word "translated" but the Greek word is the same for both, metatithemi. This Greek word means to transfer or change. The word has nothing to say about where a thing is transferred TO or it might be changed TO, You assume that Enoch went to be with God, but you have nothing in the scripture that says he went to be with God.
I showed the meaning of the Hebrew word in Genesis as well and it means take away or carry away, but does not include the idea of where.
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God “took Him” .The verse does NOT say God sent Him it says God “took him”. Why you are avoiding and changing the context of the verse is beyond me. Does God taking Enoch to Himself in HEAVEN personally upset you after all that is what the verse says ?
 
Alexander the adequate said:
For me, your approach to interpretation in this specific case is not based on the wording, but on a preconceived idea.
I think you assume Enoch went to be in God's presence, therefore Enoch must have been indwelt by Christ. Yet the OT and NT verses do NOT say where Enoch went, and you speak as if it says in black and white that he went to heaven.
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The verse says God took him NOT God sent him can you not understand the difference ?
 
Alexander the adequate said:
For me, your approach to interpretation in this specific case is not based on the wording, but on a preconceived idea.
I think you assume Enoch went to be in God's presence, therefore Enoch must have been indwelt by Christ. Yet the OT and NT verses do NOT say where Enoch went, and you speak as if it says in black and white that he went to heaven.
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That is exactly what the verse says GOD TOOK HIM ( yep Enoch was taken to heaven) not God sent Him.
 
Leatherneck0311 said:
The verse says God took him NOT God sent him can you not understand the difference ?
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Yes I understand the difference between took and sent. But then if you are honest you would have to admit I never said that it meant God sent him.
That is what we call a strawman, where you change my argument to something I did not say so that you can refute it.
But let me remind you. You have not shown from either genesis or hebrews that it says "where" God took him to, only where God took him from.

Or do you see a word in either account that states "where" Enoch went?
 
Alexander the adequate said:
Yes I understand the difference between took and sent. But then if you are honest you would have to admit I never said that it meant God sent him.
That is what we call a strawman, where you change my argument to something I did not say so that you can refute it.
But let me remind you. You have not shown from either genesis or hebrews that it says "where" God took him to, only where God took him from.

Or do you see a word in either account that states "where" Enoch went?
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I did not change your argument and the straw man is yours not mine. Scripture says God took Enoch, and since God is in heaven( or do you dispute that God is in heaven ?) it isn’t a leap to understand that Enoch is where God is.
 
Leatherneck0311 said:
I did not change your argument and the straw man is yours not mine. Scripture says God took Enoch, and since God is in heaven( or do you dispute that God is in heaven ?) it isn’t a leap to understand that Enoch is where God is.
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You claimed I said that God sent. I never said that. That is what is called a straw man. You argue against something I did not say.
I can follow your idea that God took Enoch to be with Himself. Like i say far back in the discussion, the verse does not say where God took him to. And you assume he took Him to Himself. But if you have no interest in oter verses that could add understanding, we should probably let this go
 
Alexander the adequate said:
You claimed I said that God sent. I never said that. That is what is called a straw man. You argue against something I did not say.
I can follow your idea that God took Enoch to be with Himself. Like i say far back in the discussion, the verse does not say where God took him to. And you assume he took Him to Himself. But if you have no interest in oter verses that could add understanding, we should probably let this go
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If Enoch was taken by God(and he was) and he isn’t where God is it would mean God sent Enoch other than where he is so you may not realize it but you did imply that God sent Enoch other than where He is. Good idea to let this go I will stay with what scripture actually says not what others infer, imply, deduce, summarize, and or what others create out of thin air.
 
O
guest1 said:
The calvinist teaches prior to salvation/regeneration there is none righteous yet we have OT example of God choosing po=eople who were already righteous in His eyes.

And if you don't like the OT examples we have Cornelius - another stumbling block for their doctrine.

Acts 10:21-23
Peter went down and said to the men, “I’m the one you’re looking for. Why have you come?” 22 The men replied, “We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to ask you to come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say.” 23 Then Peter invited the men into the house to be his guests.

?

next...

hope this helps !!!
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Only with God's prior intervention, @Chalcedon
 
Alexander the adequate said:
Yes. From just that the two verses Gen 5:24 and Heb 11:5, we could not say where Enoch went.
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Then don't say what the scripture does not say.
Alexander the adequate said:
But if we take everything we know in scripture about where people go after leaving earth, we do have scripture to stand on
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But we don't know everything about where people go after leaving earth so you have nothing to stand on...
John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
 
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