There is only One true gospel !

brightfame52

Well-known member
Brother Civic, I hope and pray that this response is what breaks the veil that Calvinism has put before your eyes; and not only you but all Calvinists. As in your original post, I disagree, not what you have written about the gospel of Christ....it is true and Calvinists have it right. But there is the gospel of the kingdom which Calvinists don't know.....or.....don't understand, and hence their error.
The second gospel of the two, is the gospel of the kingdom, which I am commissioned to proclaim and hope you will join me. Jesus tells us this gospel will be proclaimed throughout the world then the end will come. It is the good news to the children of God of the promise of entering into His rest at the conclusion of this age.
We are told that if we are faithful and obedient the promise of entering that rest still stands. That rest is the Sabbath rest of God, the age to come, the millennial kingdom that lies ahead for those who overcome and are worthy to inherit this blessing. So, "Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion." Ps. 95 and Heb. 3/4.
Herein is the problem with the Calvinist dogma. You have the gospel of Christ down pat and know God's love for His children is eternal. That the gospel of Christ is pure grace, undeserved and forever. But you fail to grasp that receiving the promise of the Holy Spirit is not a guaranteed event for the children of God. God's grace makes the children of men into children of God. But , just because one is a spiritually alive child of God, does not mean he is going to be faithful, obedient, love Jesus more than himself,, wise......quite the contrary, God's children are more than capable of being rebellious, disobedient, loving money more than Jesus, foolish, etc. And these children will not receive the promise of the Holy Spirit nor be part of the first resurrection, nor partake of the marriage supper, nor be a priest or king with Jesus in the age to come.
PLEASE......again I say please.....please realize that this rest of God, this "age to come", this kingdom yet to come.....IS NOT eternity. Many of God's children are already missing it and many will miss it. Prayerfully it won't be you or any Calvinist. This has been brief. I could spend hours proclaiming and teaching the gospel of the kingdom.
The Gospel of the kingdom is the same Gospel as the Gospel of Christ and the Gospel of God's Grace ! The Gospel of the Kingdom means that they only who have been birthed Spiritually into the Spiritual kingdom of Christ will be given faith to believe the Gospel mysteries. Mark 4 11

And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
 

Joe

Well-known member
See my reply to Civic's post. This may answer your questions......or give you more questions. But realize this, "endure to the end" is only referencing "this age" .

I read your post, but of course it leaves me with many questions. Do you have any online resources that explain your position?

God bless
 

JDS

Well-known member
Who agrees or disagrees ?

There is One God
There is One Lord
There is One Faith
There is One Baptism
There is One Jesus
There is only One way to God
There is One Savior

And there is One Gospel
Context in the scriptures is so important. I think Civic is wanting to make the point that every time the word "gospel" is used in the scriptures it is referring to the "gospel of Christ," his death, burial, and resurrection. Of course that is far from the truth. The word gospel just means good news, glad tidings, and when you are speaking about salvation through the shed blood of Jesus Christ and his death and resurrection you are speaking about "the gospel of Christ." This is the only way to be saved from our sins. This gospel is the power of God unto salvation, to the Jew first and also to the Greek, Paul says in Rom 1:16.

Here is a gospel that is about his birth and has nothing to do with his death, burial, and resurrection.

Lk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

WHAT IS IT?

11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

The theme of the epistle to the Romans, the seat of gentile world power in the days when Jesus was on the earth and afterwards when Paul wrote the letter in AD 58, is "the gospel of God." It is also the theme of all 13 letter of Paul to gentiles combined. A whole world that is described in Ephesians 2:11-13 in the following way, needs a gospel of God, and he gave it. Look at the plight of the gentiles, the world apart from Israel, with whom God had a 2000 year history of covenants and personal interaction. Read it here.

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Verse 13 is the gospel of God. Now, I am not going to prove it in this post but this gospel is specifically mentioned in 10 verses in the scriptures, nine times by the apostle Paul and 1 time by the apostle Peter. Paul refers to this gospel as "my gospel" three times in his letters and six times as "the gospel of God." Peter mentions the gospel of God one time for a total of ten times it is mentioned in the scriptures. The number nine is God's number for fruit bearing and Paul had much fruit among the gentiles as the apostle to the gentiles. His ministry to us is defined in Eph 3.

Now, the gospel of God includes the gospel of Christ because it is good news to men who have no promises of salvation and therefore no hope. The epistle of the Romans, the first book in the canon, sets the stage in verse 1.

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

Paul does not write much until he tells us the gospel of Christ is included in the gospel of God. Read it here.

9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

All the apostles and the 70 prophets of God are preaching the gospel of Christ. But Paul, if one can believe the words of scripture, says he is "separated" unto the gospel of God. This brings a man to the question, what is this gospel of God, are we told. The answer of course is yes, we are told. Paul, in at least 4 passages in his 13 letters says he was given the gospel of the grace of God, certainly someone who did not have a propmise and therefore no hope, would need desperately if they were to be included in God's salvation through his son and his death and resurrection. What good would that have done us if God, the judge of all the earth, had not by grace included us in this wonderful salvation. Therefore he has given us a passage that i a comprehensive definition of the gospel of God. Here it is.

Rom 16:24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, (the gospel of God) + and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

The mystery was hidden. Only now is it revealed. The mystery was that God was going to include the gentiles with the Jews in the body of Christ, the church, and he raised up one man through whom he was going to give this revelation. It is called the grace of Christ. Read about it in Ephesians 3. One verse is the comprenesive definition of the mystery of Christ, the theme of the epistle to the Ephesians.

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

The church is the object of the grace of God as his operative principle of divine dealing only in this age only. The formation of the church occupies this age only. There are ages to follow with different operative principles of divine dealings with men.

As a note, there are al least seven baptisms in the scripture, all different, and when one sees a passage that says there is "one" baptism, he must immediately think of what context i this statement appearing. Of course it appears in Eph 4 where it is in the context of the mystery of Christ and is referring to the Spirit immersing the Jewish and the gentile believers into the one body of Christ, the church, that he is forming in this age. It does not negate the teachings of other baptisms in the scriptures.

Context is always our friend.
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
@JDS when it comes to salvation there is One Gospel preached, the one that saves as per 1 Corinthians 15:1-8. And if its different from that one then it condemns and not saves them.

Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas,[b] and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

If anyone preaches/teaches a different gospel than the above let them be condemned to hell !

Galatians 1:6-9
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are following a different gospel— 7 not that there really is another gospel, but there are some who are disturbing you and wanting[j] to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we (or an angel from heaven) should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you,[l] let him be condemned to hell! 9 As we have said before, and now I say again, if any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let him be condemned to hell!

2 Corinthians 11:3-4
But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his trickery, your minds will be led astray from sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, this you tolerate very well!

hope this helps !!!
 
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Oldsaint24

Well-known member
I read your post, but of course it leaves me with many questions. Do you have any online resources that explain your position?

God bless
I'm not sure of any online sources. There are partial bits and pieces and partial accuracies, but not the whole truth. Satan is very very good at creating deception and keeping it going. Just look at the four hundred year feud between the Cals and Arms! Pray , fast, read the scriptures, ask for help from the Teacher. Realize this.....one big deception is concerning "eternal life". Jesus' teaching and the scriptures teach mostly about aion (age lasting life) and NOT eternal life. See, Satan can do nothing concerning the eternal life of God's children. Once on is a spiritually alive child of the living God, he will always be a child of God and will live in the forever with God. But between this age and eternity is the age to come.....and Satan can and does effect whether God's children will or will not inherit the age to come. Please ask any question you want. But it is important that you discover for yourself. I defend no doctrine or "ism". I don't care about doctrine or orthodoxy.......I care only for the truth......and where it leads me.
 

JDS

Well-known member
@JDS when it comes to salvation there is One Gospel preached, the one that saves as per 1 Corinthians 15:1-8

Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas,[b] and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

If anyone preaches/teaches a different gospel than the above let them be condemned to hell !

Galatians 1:6-9
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are following a different gospel— 7 not that there really is another gospel, but there are some who are disturbing you and wanting[j] to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we (or an angel from heaven) should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you,[l] let him be condemned to hell! 9 As we have said before, and now I say again, if any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let him be condemned to hell!

hope this helps !!!
Well, Civic, none of those verse negates other expressions of good news, glad tidings. It does not mean that every use of the word "gospel" is in the context of our being saved from sin. A perversion of the good news that Christ has died for the sins of the whole world and the message he is preaching and that you are quoting is the "world" in the context of scripture. Keep reading and you will find his questions relate to how they received the Spirit, which is salvation. Did they receive him by the works of the law or by the hearing of faith, he asks. You have a problem in your theology yourself, Civic. Did you believe first or were you born again first?

Paul, in Galatians says that the Spirit is received by faith, which means what it says. Someone must do some preaching about Jesus Christ and the one hearing must consider the trustworthiness of God and believe the gospel of Christ to be saved. There is no infusion. In the case of the Galatians, it was Paul who did the preaching and it was the Galatians that did the believing and it was God who gave the Spirit on that basis.

Paul did say he stood in doubt of them because they were perverting such a simple truth.
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
Well, Civic, none of those verse negates other expressions of good news, glad tidings. It does not mean that every use of the word "gospel" is in the context of our being saved from sin. A perversion of the good news that Christ has died for the sins of the whole world and the message he is preaching and that you are quoting is the "world" in the context of scripture. Keep reading and you will find his questions relate to how they received the Spirit, which is salvation. Did they receive him by the works of the law or by the hearing of faith, he asks. You have a problem in your theology yourself, Civic. Did you believe first or were you born again first?

Paul, in Galatians says that the Spirit is received by faith, which means what it says. Someone must do some preaching about Jesus Christ and the one hearing must consider the trustworthiness of God and believe the gospel of Christ to be saved. There is no infusion. In the case of the Galatians, it was Paul who did the preaching and it was the Galatians that did the believing and it was God who gave the Spirit on that basis.

Paul did say he stood in doubt of them because they were perverting such a simple truth.
Show any gospel that saves one from sin that doesn't include 1 Cor 15:1-8.

1- Jesus died for our sins
2- Jesus was Resurrected from the dead

Try finding it in Acts where the Apostles/Disciples preached the gospel and thousands upon thousands were saved and the church was born of those who received the gospel message and Gods spirit- were born again from that message that was preached regarding Christ crucified for our sins according to the scriptures and was raised from the dead !

hope this helps !!!
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.


conclusion: a person becomes born again by the GOSPEL message- the Resurrection of Jesus from the dead(the power of God unto salvation Rom 1:16, the gospel) which Peter calls the word of God- the gospel as defined in the OP which is the ONLY message(GOSPEL) that saves a person from their sins. Any other message let them be ETERNALLY CONDEMNED- Galatians 1:6-9 !

hope this helps !!!
 
T

TomFL

Guest
1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.


conclusion: a person becomes born again by the GOSPEL message- the Resurrection of Jesus from the dead(the power of God unto salvation Rom 1:16, the gospel) which Peter calls the word of God- the gospel as defined in the OP which is the ONLY message(GOSPEL) that saves a person from their sins. Any other message let them be ETERNALLY CONDEMNED- Galatians 1:6-9 !

hope this helps !!!
Yes a person is born again by believing in the gospel

for if the gospel is not mixed with faith it does not profit

Heb. 4:2 —KJV
“For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.”

1 Pet. 1:18–25 —KJV
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.”
Ҧ For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”
 

York

Active member
Who agrees or disagrees ?

There is One God
There is One Lord
There is One Faith
There is One Baptism
There is One Jesus
There is only One way to God
There is One Savior

And there is One Gospel

Galatians 1:6
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

So since there is only One God, One Savior, One way to God through Christ, One faith, One baptism and One Gospel- there is only one way to be saved.

Paul defines that Gospel by which we are saved below:

1 Corinthians 15:1-19
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; 8 and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me. 11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

12 Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15 Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.

Only One way to be saved, by One Person, One Gospel and One Faith. In Him alone. Scripture is really very exclusive here but inclusive to all that come to Him freely!

And Paul received this gospel directly from Christ by personal revelation

Galatians 1:11-12
I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

This gospel is Eternal !

Revelation 14:6
Then I saw another angel flying overhead, with the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation and tribe and tongue and people

Acts 4:12
And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Jesus passed on the gospel to His Disciples. Its the same Gospel but Christ had not suffered, died, risen yet. The disciples didn't understand the Passion until after His Resurrection, they were in denial.

Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand…. I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am who I am.” — John 13:7,19

After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken. John 2:22

From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life. — Matthew 16:21

Now Jesus was going up to Jerusalem. On the way, he took the Twelve aside and said to them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!” — Matthew 20:17-19

After His Resurrection

He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. — Luke 24:25-27

He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.” Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.Luke 24:44-45

Are you teaching others the one true Gospel ?

Ones salvation depends upon the one true gospel !

hope this helps !!!

Abraham never heard of the gospel that we know of. He did believe God on the matter of provision of an heir. Which is a different, if related matter.

His salvation didn't rest on the gospel, although it rested on what the gospel pronounces. But one no more needs to know what the gospel pronounces to avail of what it pronouces than I need to know about the workings of a vaccine in order to avail of that vaccine. How can you say our salvation depends upon the one true gospel. Surely it rests upon what the one true gospel pronounces, whether we are aware of what it pronounces or not.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
york

Abraham never heard of the gospel that we know of.

How do you understand this verse then ? Gal 3:8

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Also Heb 2:9 can refer to the Sheep since He rose from death in the same Epistle, as the Great Shepherd of the Sheep Heb 13:20

20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
Nope

The Sheep are not the unconditionally selected

The sheep were followers of God who would be given over to Christ

Or

Or the sheep were NT followers of Christ

never men opposed to God and/or Christ.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nope

The Sheep are not the unconditionally selected

The sheep were followers of God who would be given over to Christ

Or

Or the sheep were NT followers of Christ

never men opposed to God and/or Christ.
Yes. Christ rose as the great Shepherd of the Sheep because He died or tasted death for the Sheep. It's already established that Christ specifically said He died for the Sheep Jn 10:11,15
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Yes. Christ rose as the great Shepherd of the Sheep because He died or tasted death for the Sheep. It's already established that Christ specifically said He died for the Sheep Jn 10:11,15
That does nothing at all to show the sheep were unconditionally selects men


..................................

Nope

The Sheep are not the unconditionally selected

The sheep were followers of God who would be given over to Christ

Or

Or the sheep were NT followers of Christ

never men opposed to God and/or Christ.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
That does nothing at all to show the sheep were unconditionally selects men


..................................

Nope

The Sheep are not the unconditionally selected

The sheep were followers of God who would be given over to Christ

Or

Or the sheep were NT followers of Christ

never men opposed to God and/or Christ.
Yes it is, Christ is always the Shepherd of His Sheep, Hes the same yesterday, today, and forever more, so whenever referencing His death, its as the Shepherd of His Sheep.
 

York

Active member
york



How do you understand this verse then ? Gal 3:8

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Good question. "The gospel" regularily appears to be understood as believing in Jesus Christ in the sense of a saviour who walked the Earth 2000 odd years ago. You have to "believe in Jesus Christ to be saved" or "accept Jesus into your hear" and the like.

Whereas that isn't the element of the gospel as we now know it which was revealed to Abraham. That element of the gospel announced to Abraham (but not understood by Abraham) was salvation by faith: people would be saved by faith and would be children of Abraham in that sense - since he is to be saved by faith.

God announced that Abraham was going to have spiritual children.

The other interesting thing is that the fuller consequences of believing God in the matter of his promise: provision of an heir such that Abrahams physical line would continue, weren't known to Abraham. He believed God in the matter concerning his immediate trouble: continuation of his physical line. He didn't believe God on the more weighty, parallel, spiritual matter of salvation from sin and Abraham having spiritual descendants. At least, there is no explanatory text given to him to understand that.

Such are our decisions. We make them reckoning on the consequences we know of. That there are consequences arising from our actions that we do not know about is neither here nor there.

Suffice to say, Abraham didn't believe any gospel of Jesus Christ. He believed the good news as it mattered to him. God would provide an heir and a continuation of his physical line. That is all that is in the text at least.

So, why would someone have to believe in Jesus Christ if Abraham didn't have to?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Good question. The gospel regularily appears to be understood as believing in Jesus Christ in the sense of a saviour who walked the Earth 2000 odd years ago. You have to "believe in Jesus Christ to be saved" or "accept Jesus into your hear" and the like.

Whereas this isn't the element of the gospel as we now know it. That element of the gospel announced to Abraham was salvation by faith: people would be saved by faith amd would be children of Abraham in that sense - since he is to be saved by faith.

The other interesting thing is that the fuller consequences of believing God in the matter of his promise: provision of an heir such that Abrahams physical line would continue, weren't known to Abraham. He believed God in the matter concerning his immediate concern, continuation of his physical line. He didn't believe God on the more weighty, parallel, spiritual matter of salvation from sin and Abraham having spiritual descendants.

Such are our decisions. We make them reckoning on the consequences we know of. That there are consequences arising from our actions that we do not know about is neither here nor there.

Suffice to say, Abraham didn't believe any gospel of Jesus Christ. He believed the good news as it mattered to him. God would provide an heir and a continuation of his physical linr. That is all that is in the text at least.

So, why would someone have to believe in Jesus Christ if Abraham didn't have to?
Because we're under a new, better Covenant. The Old Testament Saints didn't have the full revelation of Jesus Christ but always had the promises of s coming Messiah, which was sufficient for their Day and their Covenant...
 

York

Active member
Because we're under a new, better Covenant. The Old Testament Saints didn't have the full revelation of Jesus Christ but always had the promises of s coming Messiah, which was sufficient for their Day and their Covenant...
Abraham was saved by the same covenant that we are saved by. By faith. That much we are told, Abraham being the very father of our faith. We might have a fuller revelation of that covenant. But whether you believe God on the matter of physical heir provision (even if the fuller revelation was contained therein, and hidden to Abraham) or however else it is you believe God in the fuller sense appears to matter not.

Believe God is the common denominator. That is what saves - not having the fuller revelation.

Which makes problematic all our modern day demands that people need to believe in Jesus Christ.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Abraham was saved by the same covenant that we are saved by. By faith. That much we are told, Abraham being the very father of our faith. We might have a fuller revelation of that covenant. But whether you believe God on the matter of physical heir provision (even if the fuller revelation was contained therein, and hidden to Abraham) or however else it is you believe God in the fuller sense appears to matter not.

Believe God is the common denominator. That is what saves - not having the fuller revelation.

Which makes problematic all our modern day demands that people need to believe in Jesus Christ.
Faith is not a Covenant. The Abrahamic Covenant was a Covenant of Grace. We're under the New Covenant, a better Covenant...

What Denomination do you belong to?
 

York

Active member
Abraham is interesting. There was no weighty spiritual element to his believing God. He displayed something that is common in scripture: desparation. It is the desperate who turn to and believe God. The NT sick, lame, despised, ashamed, rejected, desperate.

Each and every person we see turn and believe are those who share a common feature. They are all people who have come, by whatever means, to the end of the self directed life.

They are all people who were born self directing their lives but are convinced (by the impact of their own self directed lives on them and/or the impact of others self directing of their own lives (a.k.a. a sinful world) on them. And that hasn't worked for them. It hasn't brought them the peace and happiness and joy they sought to have.

Now, at the end of their tethers (hanging as a thief on a cross is, you would agree, the end of the line, the point at which you might be convinced of the futility and lie behind the self directed life) they turn to the only other option: God.

All who turn turn because there us no option left offered by the self directed life. They don't choose to turn, they turn because they are forced by their desperation to turn. Their sinful, self directing will has been vanquished. Vanquished, ironically by the Truth on the one hand and the efforts of their self directed life on the other.

That's all that happened Abraham. In his case, the desperate need for an heir brought him to his end of line. It'll be all sorts of things for different people: sickness, ashamedness, a dying daughter. Whatever.

The common denominator witnessed to by Abraham and a host of biblical characters. Desperation and the end of self.

Simple reversal of the original problem: the desire for a self directed life. When that desire is vamquished, if it is vanquished, there is no further obstacle. The prodigal has returned and celebration breaks out
 
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