There is only One true gospel !

York

Active member
Faith is not a Covenant. The Abrahamic Covenant was a Covenant of Grace. We're under the New Covenant, a better Covenant...

What Denomination do you belong to?
So Abraham was saved by believing God and we are saved differently?

What's substantially better about 'our' covenant? He is saved by faith, we are saved by faith.

Denomination? None.
 

York

Active member
So Abraham was saved by believing God and we are saved differently? It is by grace we are saved. How was Abrahams grace covemant different? It saved him too

What's substantially better about 'our' covenant? He is saved by faith, we are saved by faith.

Denomination? None.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
So Abraham was saved by believing God and we are saved differently?

What's substantially better about 'our' covenant? He is saved by faith, we are saved by faith.

Denomination? None.
The Bible says the New Covenant is better, or no other Covenant would have been sought. Even Abraham needed Christ's Righteousness through Imputation. The Abrahamic Covenant fell short as it didn't include Christ's Righteousness, but Abraham longed to see Christ's day for this reason...
 

York

Active member
The Bible says the New Covenant is better, or no other Covenant would have been sought. Even Abraham needed Christ's Righteousness through Imputation. The Abrahamic Covenant fell short as it didn't include Christ's Righteousness, but Abraham longed to see Christ's day for this reason...
What righteousness was credited to Abraham (if not Christs). And if it was Christs righteousness credited him how did he obtain it if not by merely believing God in the matter of physical heir provision?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
What righteousness was credited to Abraham (if not Christs). And if it was Christs righteousness credited him how did he obtain it if not by merely believing God in the matter of physical heir provision?
Christ's Righteousness was credited to Abraham by God's Grace through Faith in the Future Messiah, apart from Works lest he should boast....
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Yes it is, Christ is always the Shepherd of His Sheep, Hes the same yesterday, today, and forever more, so whenever referencing His death, its as the Shepherd of His Sheep.
That says nothing at all how they came to be sheep

sheep are never shown to be unbelievers of God and Christ

Your theology is anti biblical
 

York

Active member
Christ's Righteousness was credited to Abraham by God's Grace through Faith in the Future Messiah, apart from Works lest he should boast....
Er.. the text says that Abraham believed God on the matter of provision of a much yearned for heir.

There is nothing in the text about faith in some future Messiah. Righteousness (which you seem was obtained through Christ) from faith expressed re: God's then promise regarding heir provision

You seem to be reading a theology into the text.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Er.. the text says that Abraham believed God on the matter of provision of a much yearned for heir.

There is nothing in the text about faith in some future Messiah. Righteousness (which you seem was obtained through Christ) from faith expressed re: God's then promise regarding heir provision

You seem to be reading a theology into the text.
I'll leave you alone from here on out. The Bible says the Old Testament Saints looked Forward to the Promise. Jesus Christ is the Promise. Do you not believe the New Testament?

By the way; these are the Theology Boards. Decrying the use of Theology is not a foul here...
 
Last edited:

York

Active member
I'll leave you alone from here on out. The Bible says the Old Testament Saints looked Forward to the Promise. Jesus Christ is the Promise...

Yes, yes, but it seems at least one of them was saved quite aside from whatever looking forward that might have been engaged in.

"So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Direct connection to Abraham's salvation and the mode of its occurring. Believing what God says and righeousness given.

Abraham heard and believed what he believed. And every other OT saint became so because they believed what God said (which wasn't that they would be given a longed for heir).


We have to go with what's on the page. We can't stitch it together from bits taken hither and tither. That would be .. er .. Frankenstinian

:)
 

civic

Well-known member
Er.. the text says that Abraham believed God on the matter of provision of a much yearned for heir.

There is nothing in the text about faith in some future Messiah. Righteousness (which you seem was obtained through Christ) from faith expressed re: God's then promise regarding heir provision

You seem to be reading a theology into the text.
John 8:56-59
Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.

57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

1 Peter 1:10-12
Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

Anything else you want to know about the OT saints knowing about the coming of the future Messiah is what they looked forward to ?

hope this helps !!!
 

York

Active member
If I anywhere denied the OT saints looking forward then do enlighten me.

The issue here is Abraham and his salvation. We know not that he looked forward to the day of Christ before he believed God. We only know that he did at some point. That's all the text says re: timing.

We are told he believed God in the matter of the promise of a physical heir provided. That's what the text says

Attempts to convert his saving belief in God's heir-promise into a belief in Christ - by stretching back the ages with this 'look forward' device are fabrications.

What is it: Abraham 'looking forward to Christ' is slipped into the text between God saying and Abraham believing? On your bike with that..



Hope that helps clarify what the discussion is about.


(Quite why someone who was dead in his sins (i.e. pre believing God and being credited with righteousness) would be looking forward to the day of Christ is beyond me. The dead in sin don't tend to see amd be glad.
.
 
Last edited:

Septextura

Well-known member
I'll leave you alone from here on out. The Bible says the Old Testament Saints looked Forward to the Promise. Jesus Christ is the Promise. Do you not believe the New Testament?

By the way; these are the Theology Boards. Decrying the use of Theology is not a foul here...

Amen. Abraham was of God's anointed, therefore led by the Holy Ghost.

Genesis 22
7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
 

York

Active member
Do you not believe the New Testament?

I do. But I have no reason to suppose Abraham did at the time he believed God. At least not from the text before me.

When did Abraham see Christs day? Before he believed God or after?
By the way; these are the Theology Boards. Decrying the use of Theology is not a foul here...

I mean importing an idea into the text. What Abraham believed and the connection to the consequences of his doing so is there on the page.

You are inserting something in between God promising and Abraham believing that promise. Namely, his looking forward and in fact believing Christ his saviour or some such idea.

When you don't know whether Abraham looked forward prior to being declared rigtheous.

That is NOT deriving a theology from the text.
 
Last edited:

brightfame52

Well-known member
Good question. "The gospel" regularily appears to be understood as believing in Jesus Christ in the sense of a saviour who walked the Earth 2000 odd years ago. You have to "believe in Jesus Christ to be saved" or "accept Jesus into your hear" and the like.

Whereas that isn't the element of the gospel as we now know it which was revealed to Abraham. That element of the gospel announced to Abraham (but not understood by Abraham) was salvation by faith: people would be saved by faith and would be children of Abraham in that sense - since he is to be saved by faith.

God announced that Abraham was going to have spiritual children.

The other interesting thing is that the fuller consequences of believing God in the matter of his promise: provision of an heir such that Abrahams physical line would continue, weren't known to Abraham. He believed God in the matter concerning his immediate trouble: continuation of his physical line. He didn't believe God on the more weighty, parallel, spiritual matter of salvation from sin and Abraham having spiritual descendants. At least, there is no explanatory text given to him to understand that.

Such are our decisions. We make them reckoning on the consequences we know of. That there are consequences arising from our actions that we do not know about is neither here nor there.

Suffice to say, Abraham didn't believe any gospel of Jesus Christ. He believed the good news as it mattered to him. God would provide an heir and a continuation of his physical line. That is all that is in the text at least.

So, why would someone have to believe in Jesus Christ if Abraham didn't have to?
I see , So what do you think about this Jn 8:56

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Amen. Abraham was of God's anointed, therefore led by the Holy Ghost.
There's only one tactic for people like York, and that's the Law of God. York doesn't appear to be interested in the New Covenant; so all he has is the Old Covenant. I would be interested in hearing 'Well done Good and Faithful servant' as opposed to hearing 'Depart from me you Workers of Iniquity; I NEVER KNEW YOU'. You can only hear the first by being in the New Covenant. We can't hear it by trying to be in the Abrahamic Covenant; it HAS passed away...
 

York

Active member
There's only one tactic for people like York, and that's the Law of God. York doesn't appear to be interested in the New Covenant; so all he has is the Old Covenant
Abraham was saved by the Old Covenant?
I would be interested in hearing 'Well done Good and Faithful servant' as opposed to hearing 'Depart from me you Workers of Iniquity; I NEVER KNEW YOU'. You can only hear the first by being in the New Covenant. We can't hear it by trying to be in the Abrahamic Covenant; it HAS passed away...
Yet Abraham is the father of the faith. Which faith is that? The text says that (Romans 4) it was his believing God in the matter of heir provision.

You appear to be supposing the father of our faith, whose faith fathership stems from his believing God in the matter of heir provision has nothing to do with the New Covenant.

Wow!
 
Last edited:
Top