There is only One true gospel !

York

Active member
There's only one Gospel, the Gospel of Jesus Christ...

As you interpret it. And that interpretation requires you to explain how Abraham faiths, which resulted in his fathering our faith, is in fact some or other covenant which no longer holds sway. Yet he is still the father of our faith.

Your trouble commences at Romans 4 where the precise basis of his being our father is given us. Abraham believed God .. on the matter of an heir.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
As you interpret it. And that interpretation requires you to explain how Abraham faiths, which resulted in his fathering our faith, is in fact some or other covenant which no longer holds sway. Yet he is still the father of our faith.

Your trouble commences at Romans 4 where the precise basis of his being our father is given us. Abraham believed God .. on the matter of an heir.
The Edenic Covenant precedes the Abrahamic Covenant, you are Fallen into Sin. Have you ever told a Lie? I have. We need a Deliverer, and Abraham has one; the Lord Jesus Christ. If Christ is not your Deliverer, wouldn't you have to agree that if you had the opportunity to speak to Jesus, won't he say he doesn't know you?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Was that before or after he believed God and was credited with righteousness?
It doesn't say. But He saw Christ day. I believe it is speaking of the days that He was to come to die for the Sheep. He was a prophet you know. Gen 20:7

Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.

And Peter wrote of the Prophets 1 Pet 1:10-11

Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow
 

York

Active member
The Edenic Covenant precedes the Abrahamic Covenant, you are Fallen into Sin. Have you ever told a Lie? I have. We need a Deliverer, and Abraham has one; the Lord Jesus Christ. If Christ is not your Deliverer, wouldn't you have to agree that if you had the opportunity to speak to Jesus, won't he say he doesn't know you?
How and when did Abraham obtain this deliverer, if not when/by believing God in the matter of God's promise regarding an heir.

Spare me the surrounding fluff. We are interested in the text, what it says and how you explain your position in light of that.

There are a few other questions posed for you which you might attend to.

Continue with the fluff regarding my eternal salvation according to your paradigm and I might have to start doubting your ability to support your view.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
How and when did Abraham obtain this deliverer, if not when/by believing God in the matter of God's promise regarding an heir.

Spare me the surrounding fluff. We are interested in the text, what it says and how you explain your position in light of that.

There are a few other questions posed for you which you might attend to.

Continue with the fluff regarding my eternal salvation according to your paradigm and I might have to start doubting your ability to support your view.
Abraham obtained his Deliverer by Grace through Faith apart from Meritorious Works. He obtained Christ as his Savior when he believed. I claim the same Deliverer Abraham claimed, the risen Lord God Jesus Christ. There is no other name given under Heaven by which you must be Saved, the name of Jesus Christ...
 

York

Active member
It doesn't say. But He saw Christ day. I believe it is speaking of the days that He was to come to die for the Sheep. He was a prophet you know. Gen 20:7
This, of course, is subsequent to Abraham believing God. Are we agreed that Abraham was saved at his belief event and that he was in some way born again and had eyes open?

It would not surprise if he became then a proto-Christian. And a prophet.

Suffice to say, we cannot tie his seeing Christs day to his belief event.

We must be fair to scripture. It cannot give commentary at every point on every supposition we might lay on it. It ties Abraham believing God on the matter of heir provision and we cannot assume Abraham was in anyway influenced by an additional, unsupported notion that he also (nay predominantly) saw Christs day.

We cannot force his proto-believing in Christ just because we already have a theology that supposes a man must believe in 'Jesus Christ' to be saved.
 

York

Active member
Abraham obtained his Deliverer by Grace through Faith apart from Meritorious Works. He obtained Christ as his Savior when he believed. I claim the same Deliverer Abraham claimed, the risen Lord God Jesus Christ. There is no other name given under Heaven by which you must be Saved, the name of Jesus Christ...
Abraham didn't claim Christ. He might have obtained him alright but he didn't claim him. At least the text doesn't say so. Abraham believed God on a comparatively mundane-to-most matter. And got more than he bargained for: Christ.

Stitching together a string of verses like you so doesn't render an argument or a theology. It's spiritual sounding spagetti.

And I ain't teasing out the strands. That's your work.

Where does Abraham claim Christ? Text.

How is Abraham our faith father via his believing God, when that covenant is redundant (according to you). Text.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Abraham didn't claim Christ. He might have obtained him alright but he didn't claim him. At least the text doesn't say so. Abraham believed God on a comparatively mundane-to-most matter.

Stitching together a string of verses like that doesn't render an argument or a theology. Its spiritual sounding spagetti.

And I ain't teasing out the strands. That's your work.

Where does Abraham claim Christ? Text.

How is Abraham our faith father via his believing God when that covenant is redundant (according to you). Text
Abraham obtained Christ; thankyou...

Have you obtained Christ?
 
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brightfame52

Well-known member
This, of course, is subsequent to Abraham believing God. Are we agreed that Abraham was saved at his belief event and that he was in some way born again and had eyes open?

It would not surprise if he became then a proto-Christian. And a prophet.

Suffice to say, we cannot tie his seeing Christs day to his belief event.

We must be fair to scripture. It cannot give commentary at every point on every supposition we might lay on it. It ties Abraham believing God on the matter of heir provision and we cannot assume Abraham was in anyway influenced by an additional, unsupported notion that he also (nay predominantly) saw Christs day.

We cannot force his proto-believing in Christ just because we already have a theology that supposes a man must believe in 'Jesus Christ' to be saved.
I will rest my case, you have been shown enough. I believe that Abraham had faith in Christ, His death/Blood for the sins of the people. If you don't believe it, that is how it is for you.
 

York

Active member
I will rest my case, you have been shown enough. I believe that Abraham had faith in Christ, His death/Blood for the sins of the people. If you don't believe it, that is how it is for you.
So soon?


I have been shown that: subsequent to Abraham undergoing what we might recognize as a saving, transformational event, he is reported as being able 'see' the God world (prophet).

There is no report of this prior to his belief event.

You chose to believe (without evidence) his eyes were open to Christ at the time of his believing.

You delete what is actually written on the page (his desperation in the lack of an heir, the significance of God meeting his specific desperate need) and insert this unsupported/unrecorded notion in its place. Or, at best, perhaps insert it beside what's written there.

One is as bad as the other. And I don't think you disagree with that summation

We ought to base what we believe on the evidence before us.

You have no textual basis for supposing Abraham could see Christ when he believed. That notion is an insert demanded, might I hazard, by an 'a priori' insistance that someone has to believe in the words 'Jesus Christ' to be saved.

As if that was the name (or only name) of Jesus.
 
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ReverendRV

Well-known member
You were going to start answering some obvious questions raised by your curious position??
No, I'm done for now. I take it that you agree the Object of Abraham's Faith is Jesus Christ, un less you say otherwise. If you want me to continue, just affirm in an unavoidable way that you don't think Jesus is Abraham's Savor; and I'll be back...
 

York

Active member
No, I'm done for now. I take it that you agree the Object of Abraham's Faith is Jesus Christ

Seeing as the text doesn't say the object of Abraham's faith (from Abraham's perspective) was Jesus, I don't see how I can.

The object of Abrahams faith was, according to the text at least, God's promise to provide him with an heir.

I'd agree that Abraham was saved through Jesus Christs work. But he wasn't saved by faith in Jesus. He was saved by believing God re: a promise of an son
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Seeing as the text doesn't say the object of Abraham's faith (from Abraham's perspective) was Jesus, I don't see how I can.

The object of Abrahams faith was, according to the text at least, God's promise to provide him with an heir.

I'd agree that Abraham was saved through Jesus Christs work. But he wasn't saved by faith in Jesus. He was saved by believing God re: a promise of an son
Are you Saved through Faith in Jesus?
 

York

Active member
Are you Saved through Faith in Jesus?
Last chance saloon. Whether I am or am not saved through faith in Jesus is not relevant to the conundrum I suspect this line of questioning aims to circumvent. Namely, your problem in answering

Going, going..
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Last chance saloon. Whether I am or am not saved through faith in Jesus is not relevant to the conundrum I suspect this line of questioning aims to circumvent your problem in answering

Going, going..
The longer you're here, the more you'll learn that I do like to answer questions. Now doesn't appear to be the time for us, but watch me for a while...

Gone for now...
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
So soon?


I have been shown that: subsequent to Abraham undergoing what we might recognize as a saving, transformational event, he is reported as being able 'see' the God world (prophet).

There is no report of this prior to his belief event.

You chose to believe (without evidence) his eyes were open to Christ at the time of his believing.

You delete what is actually written on the page (his desperation in the lack of an heir, the significance of God meeting his specific desperate need) and insert this unsupported/unrecorded notion in its place. Or, at best, perhaps insert it beside what's written there.

One is as bad as the other. And I don't think you disagree with that summation

We ought to base what we believe on the evidence before us.

You have no textual basis for supposing Abraham could see Christ when he believed. That notion is an insert demanded, might I hazard, by an 'a priori' insistance that someone has to believe in the words 'Jesus Christ' to be saved.

As if that was the name (or only name) of Jesus.
I rest my case with you.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Who agrees or disagrees ?

There is One God
There is One Lord
There is One Faith
There is One Baptism
There is One Jesus
There is only One way to God
There is One Savior

And there is One Gospel

Galatians 1:6
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

So since there is only One God, One Savior, One way to God through Christ, One faith, One baptism and One Gospel- there is only one way to be saved.

Paul defines that Gospel by which we are saved below:

1 Corinthians 15:1-19
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; 8 and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me. 11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

12 Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15 Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.

Only One way to be saved, by One Person, One Gospel and One Faith. In Him alone. Scripture is really very exclusive here but inclusive to all that come to Him freely!

And Paul received this gospel directly from Christ by personal revelation

Galatians 1:11-12
I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

This gospel is Eternal !

Revelation 14:6
Then I saw another angel flying overhead, with the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation and tribe and tongue and people

Acts 4:12
And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Jesus passed on the gospel to His Disciples. Its the same Gospel but Christ had not suffered, died, risen yet. The disciples didn't understand the Passion until after His Resurrection, they were in denial.

Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand…. I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am who I am.” — John 13:7,19

After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken. John 2:22

From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life. — Matthew 16:21

Now Jesus was going up to Jerusalem. On the way, he took the Twelve aside and said to them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!” — Matthew 20:17-19

After His Resurrection

He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. — Luke 24:25-27

He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.” Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.Luke 24:44-45

Are you teaching others the one true Gospel ?

Ones salvation depends upon the one true gospel !

hope this helps !!!

You mean this Gospel?

5 Because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the Day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his works: 7 to those who patiently do good seeking for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life, 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation, 9 tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good.... 16 on the Day when God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus according to my Gospel.
Romans 2
 

TomFL

Well-known member
The Gospel of the kingdom is the same Gospel as the Gospel of Christ and the Gospel of God's Grace ! The Gospel of the Kingdom means that they only who have been birthed Spiritually into the Spiritual kingdom of Christ will be given faith to believe the Gospel mysteries. Mark 4 11

And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
That is light-revelation not faith
 
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