There should be no doubt in the means by which God is known to the believer.

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
Evasion. Sure I have.
You have not. Please answer the question:

Do you understand that the following two statements mean two very different things?

a) only a believing mind can know that the truth and reality exist.
b) the truth and reality exist in and with a believing mind, which fact can be known.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Both are true.
That's not what either of us were asking. The question was whether or not the two sentences mean the same thing. You keep evading ES' question just as you evade mine. And this shows everyone here that you are not sincere in what you say.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
You have not. Please answer the question:

Do you understand that the following two statements mean two very different things?

a) only a believing mind can know that the truth and reality exist.
b) the truth and reality exist in and with a believing mind, which fact can be known.
That's not what either of us were asking. The question was whether or not the two sentences mean the same thing. You keep evading ES' question just as you evade mine. And this shows everyone here that you are not sincere in what you say.

So you're not interested in the truth and reality are you. But I am interested in what's true and reality and not your silly atheist conjuring to hide the truth and reality from yourself.

Actually what matters is that both are true, so if "only a believing mind can know that the truth and reality exist", then the truth and reality must be the product of a believing mind. Why? Because it cannot be known to exist or occur anywhere else other than a believing mind. And you can't show otherwise and this drives you bonkers doesn't it unbeliever?
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
So you're not interested in the truth and reality are you. But I am interested in what's true and reality and not your silly atheist conjuring to hide the truth and reality from yourself.

Actually what matters is that both are true, so if "only a believing mind can know that the truth and reality exist", then the truth and reality must be the product of a believing mind. Why? Because it cannot be known to exist or occur anywhere else other than a believing mind. And you can't show otherwise and this drives you bonkers doesn't it unbeliever?
I'm very interested in the truth. That's why I'm asking you questions - questions designed to show you the truth about the ambiguity of your premise. If you were as interested in the truth as we are then you'd try answering our questions instead of dodging and trying to change the subject.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
I'm very interested in the truth. That's why I'm asking you questions - questions designed to show you the truth about the ambiguity of your premise. If you were as interested in the truth as we are then you'd try answering our questions instead of dodging and trying to change the subject.
So you're not interested in the truth and reality. But I am interested in what's true and reality and not your silly atheist conjuring to hide the truth and reality from yourself.

How can you be interested in the truth and reality when you disbelieve the ONLY mode by which the truth and reality is known to you can't make the truth and reality known to you silly?

Here is me answering the question again: Actually what matters is that both are true, so if "only a believing mind can know that the truth and reality exist", then the truth and reality must be the product of a believing mind. Why? Because it cannot be known to exist or occur anywhere else other than a believing mind. And you can't show otherwise and this drives you bonkers doesn't it? Deal with what's being said to you and stop evading.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
So you're not interested in the truth and reality.
No, that's literally the very opposite of what I said.

How can you be interested in the truth and reality when you disbelieve the ONLY mode by which the truth and reality is known to you can't make the truth and reality known to you silly?
More strawman nonsense.

Here is me answering the question again: Actually what matters is that both are true, so if "only a believing mind can know that the truth and reality exist", then the truth and reality must be the product of a believing mind. Why? Because it cannot be known to exist or occur anywhere else other than a believing mind. And you can't show otherwise and this drives you bonkers doesn't it? Deal with what's being said to you and stop evading.
That's not even remotely an answer to my question. Try answering what was asked instead of trying to change the subject.
 

J regia

Well-known member
So you're not interested in the truth and reality. But I am interested in what's true and reality and not your silly atheist conjuring to hide the truth and reality from yourself.

How can you be interested in the truth and reality when you disbelieve the ONLY mode by which the truth and reality is known to you can't make the truth and reality known to you silly?

Here is me answering the question again: Actually what matters is that both are true, so if "only a believing mind can know that the truth and reality exist", then the truth and reality must be the product of a believing mind. Why? Because it cannot be known to exist or occur anywhere else other than a believing mind. And you can't show otherwise and this drives you bonkers doesn't it? Deal with what's being said to you and stop evading.
IOW the truth and reality of a god's believing mind only exists in your imagination.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
No, that's literally the very opposite of what I said.

You're not interested in the truth or reality, because you have denied the only means by which the truth and reality is known, you refuse to accept belief's capacity to make the truth and reality known to you. Or IOW you have embraced unbelief (atheism) rather than belief as a means to make the truth and reality known to you, but unbelief (atheism) can't make the truth and reality known to anyone including you.

More strawman nonsense.

That's not even remotely an answer to my question. Try answering what was asked instead of trying to change the subject.
Your opinion about my answer is irrelevant, because it is my answer and not yours. So, stop your bluffing and evading.

I am a believer and belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to everyone including you. And you are the unbeliever and unbelief can't make the truth or reality known to anyone including you silly.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
And yet I am. If you were too, then you'd be answering our questions instead of endlessly evading them.

You haven't even answered me yet.

Your opinion about my answer is irrelevant, because it is my answer and not yours. So, stop your bluffing and evading.

I am a believer and belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to everyone including you. And you are the unbeliever (atheist) and unbelief can't make the truth or reality known to anyone including you silly.
 

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
So you're not interested in the truth and reality. But I am interested in what's true and reality and not your silly atheist conjuring to hide the truth and reality from yourself.

How can you be interested in the truth and reality when you disbelieve the ONLY mode by which the truth and reality is known to you can't make the truth and reality known to you silly?

Here is me answering the question again: Actually what matters is that both are true, so if "only a believing mind can know that the truth and reality exist", then the truth and reality must be the product of a believing mind. Why? Because it cannot be known to exist or occur anywhere else other than a believing mind. And you can't show otherwise and this drives you bonkers doesn't it? Deal with what's being said to you and stop evading.
The one evading is you. Why will you not answer the question?

Do you understand that the following two statements mean two very different things?

a) only a believing mind can know that the truth and reality exist.
b) the truth and reality exist in and with a believing mind, which fact can be known.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
The one evading is you. Why will you not answer the question?

Do you understand that the following two statements mean two very different things?

a) only a believing mind can know that the truth and reality exist.
b) the truth and reality exist in and with a believing mind, which fact can be known.

Why can't you see; if "only a believing mind can know that the truth and reality exist", then "the truth and reality exist in and with a believing mind" silly?
 

Tercon

Well-known member
So try answering my question instead. What are you afraid of?

Actually what matters is that both are true. So, if "only a believing mind can know that the truth and reality exist", then the truth and reality must be the product of a believing mind. Why? Because it cannot be known to exist or occur anywhere else other than a believing mind. And you can't show otherwise and this drives you bonkers doesn't it? Deal with what's being said to you and stop evading.

That's the ambiguity once again, which my as yet unanswered question is designed to get you to address.

Strawman and projection.

The truth is only ambiguous to the one disbelieving it. And that's only because your unbelief causes you to be ignorant of the truth and reality.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Actually what matters is that both are true.
But they aren't both true. But when we try to explain this to you, you get confused because you've been using the same language for both claims, failing to keep them separate.

Deal with what's being said to you and stop evading.
You're the one refusing to answer our questions. So YOU stop evading.
 

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
Why can't you see; if "only a believing mind can know that the truth and reality exist", then "the truth and reality exist in and with a believing mind" silly?
Why do you continue evading? Why will you not answer the question?

Do you understand that the following two statements mean two very different things?

a) only a believing mind can know that the truth and reality exist.
b) the truth and reality exist in and with a believing mind, which fact can be known.

Why would any person not want to participate in clarifying the discussion? What do you have to hide?
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Why do you continue evading? Why will you not answer the question?

Do you understand that the following two statements mean two very different things?

a) only a believing mind can know that the truth and reality exist.
b) the truth and reality exist in and with a believing mind, which fact can be known.

Why would any person not want to participate in clarifying the discussion? What do you have to hide?

Still running and hiding from the truth and reality I see, when are you going to man up and face the truth about yourself?

Not evading anything. The truth and reality can ONLY be known you exist and occur in and with a believing mind and in and with NO other way and place can the truth and reality be known to exist or occur. What is ambiguous about this?

And if there is another way or place that is capable of making the truth and reality known to exist and occur besides a believing mind, then say what that other way or place is and explain how it makes the truth and reality known and occur?
 
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