They Are No Longer His Children Because They Are Blemished

Daniel.

Member
I just told you I don't believe you know what you talking about. Lol
Update: Sorry, I mixed this conversation up with the John 8 one.

I believe 1) the Law contains a shadow of things to come (Hb 10:1), 2) that the OT teaches us about Christianity (Ps 102:18; 2 Ti 3:15), and 3) these things happened to them to teach us (1 Co 10:11).
 

Hark

Well-known member
So, I've seen that people often misunderstand the idea of being "born again" or "children of God" as if it were something irreversible or immutable ("You can't become unborn, silly--similarly, you can't become 'not God's child'."); clearly, these people just need a little information to help them out of this misunderstanding on account of which they are spreading confusion in the Christian community.

Deuteronomy 31
1“You are the sons of the Lord your God.
Deuteronomy 32
5They have dealt corruptly with him;
they are no longer his children because they are blemished...

So, Jews are called God's children; later it's prophesied they will no longer be God's children.

Hosea 1
9And the Lord said, “Call his name Not My People, for you are not my people, and I am not your God.”
10Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or numbered. And in the place where it was said to them, “You are not my people,” it shall be said to them, “Children of the living God.”

Deuteronomy 32's prophecy comes true: they're no longer God's children, and must become God's children in the future.

Romans 9
24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25As indeed he says in Hosea,
“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
26“And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”


Paul says Hosea refers to Jews--ie, Jews, indeed, must become God's children (proving they'd been rejected as such).

Before you say "But they weren't truly saved--what happened to them was just a shadow of things to come!" : yes, it was/is a shadow of things to come. That actually proves my point: as Paul says, "Old Testament" Scripture teaches us about how Christianity works.


2 Timothy 3
15and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

And an explicit example...

1 Corinthians 9
8Do I say these things on human authority? Does not the Law say the same? 9For it is written in the Law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain.” Is it for oxen that God is concerned? 10Does he not certainly speak for our sake? It was written for our sake, because the plowman should plow in hope and the thresher thresh in hope of sharing in the crop. 11If we have sown spiritual things among you, is it too much if we reap material things from you? 12If others share this rightful claim on you, do not we even more?
Nevertheless, we have not made use of this right, but we endure anything rather than put an obstacle in the way of the gospel of Christ. 13Do you not know that those who are employed in the temple service get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in the sacrificial offerings? 14In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel.

And again what ever happened to them happened as an example for us.

1 Corinthians 10
11Now these things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.
The difference in the New Covenant is that there is no loss of salvation, but loss of being a part of the firstfruits of the resurrection.

You can see this in Esau when he gave up his birthright fr a meal and you can see this in the prodigal son in how he lost his inheritance to wild living, but he is still son.

So sonship cannot be lost.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

John 6:
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Look at the 2 kinds of inheritance in the kingdom of heaven between those that follow him by keeping His commandments and teaches others and how those who do not.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

So the vessels unto dishonor in His House that did not depart from iniquity & get left behind are the least of the kingdom of heaven.

Salvation & sonship eternally assured, but whether or not N.T. saints will participate in the firstfruits of the resurrection, depends on believing they are saved since running that race or living as His disciples is not about obtaining salvation for they are saved, but for obtaining that eternal glory that comes with our salvation; that high prize of our calling to be that vessel unto honor in His House..

Your applying what happened to God's chosen people in the Old Covenant does not apply to His people per the New Covenant for He has made you His and it would be an iniquity to deny the Lord that bought you and those who profess Him or former believers as if they were not saved..
 

Daniel.

Member
The difference in the New Covenant is that there is no loss of salvation, but loss of being a part of the firstfruits of the resurrection.

You can see this in Esau when he gave up his birthright fr a meal and you can see this in the prodigal son in how he lost his inheritance to wild living, but he is still son.

So sonship cannot be lost.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

John 6:
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Look at the 2 kinds of inheritance in the kingdom of heaven between those that follow him by keeping His commandments and teaches others and how those who do not.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

So the vessels unto dishonor in His House that did not depart from iniquity & get left behind are the least of the kingdom of heaven.

Salvation & sonship eternally assured, but whether or not N.T. saints will participate in the firstfruits of the resurrection, depends on believing they are saved since running that race or living as His disciples is not about obtaining salvation for they are saved, but for obtaining that eternal glory that comes with our salvation; that high prize of our calling to be that vessel unto honor in His House..

Your applying what happened to God's chosen people in the Old Covenant does not apply to His people per the New Covenant for He has made you His and it would be an iniquity to deny the Lord that bought you and those who profess Him or former believers as if they were not saved..
What I see Paul teaching is that there is continuity between the OT dynamics mentioned and NT dynamics--eg, 1 Corinthians 10 warns us that we are saved just as the Jews were saved from Egypt, and baptized just as the Jews were baptized into Moses, but that just as many of them turned from the path of God and fell under His wrath in the wilderness without inheriting the promise so also we could fall under God's wrath without inheriting the promise if we behave in ways God hates.

Your empty assertion that "there is no loss of salvation in the NT" is simply an instance of the error of begging the question.

"firstfruits" Blah, blah, blah. You don't know the Bible.
 

Hark

Well-known member
What I see Paul teaching is that there is continuity between the OT dynamics mentioned and NT dynamics--eg, 1 Corinthians 10 warns us that we are saved just as the Jews were saved from Egypt, and baptized just as the Jews were baptized into Moses, but that just as many of them turned from the path of God and fell under His wrath in the wilderness without inheriting the promise so also we could fall under God's wrath without inheriting the promise if we behave in ways God hates.

Your empty assertion that "there is no loss of salvation in the NT" is simply an instance of the error of begging the question.

"firstfruits" Blah, blah, blah. You don't know the Bible.
When you talk like that, it should leave you with no wonder why I am not listening to you. You are hardly serving Him as you void the Good News.

2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

I am not offended, but you will answer to Him for that, because there is no way you are going to enter His kingdom with an attitude like that.

1 Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Doesn't matter if saved believers fall away and get left behind for He will finish His work in them even when left behind for He will lose nothing of all the Father has given Him. Sonship and eternal security is assured whether they believe it or not because He still abides in former believers per 2 Timothy 2:13.

2 Timothy 2:.13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
What I see Paul teaching is that there is continuity between the OT dynamics mentioned and NT dynamics--eg, 1 Corinthians 10 warns us that we are saved just as the Jews were saved from Egypt, and baptized just as the Jews were baptized into Moses, but that just as many of them turned from the path of God and fell under His wrath in the wilderness without inheriting the promise so also we could fall under God's wrath without inheriting the promise if we behave in ways God hates.

Your empty assertion that "there is no loss of salvation in the NT" is simply an instance of the error of begging the question.

"firstfruits" Blah, blah, blah. You don't know the Bible.

It looks like 'old habits' are hard to break. You should rethink what you want to say before you type it. Are you missing the tall weeds?
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
When you talk like that, it should leave you with no wonder why I am not listening to you. You are hardly serving Him as you void the Good News.

2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

I am not offended, but you will answer to Him for that, because there is no way you are going to enter His kingdom with an attitude like that.

1 Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Doesn't matter if saved believers fall away and get left behind for He will finish His work in them even when left behind for He will lose nothing of all the Father has given Him. Sonship and eternal security is assured whether they believe it or not because He still abides in former believers per 2 Timothy 2:13.

2 Timothy 2:.13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

This has to be the best post of the day. You are completely on target.
 

Daniel.

Member
When you talk like that, it should leave you with no wonder why I am not listening to you. You are hardly serving Him as you void the Good News.

2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

I am not offended, but you will answer to Him for that, because there is no way you are going to enter His kingdom with an attitude like that.

1 Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Doesn't matter if saved believers fall away and get left behind for He will finish His work in them even when left behind for He will lose nothing of all the Father has given Him. Sonship and eternal security is assured whether they believe it or not because He still abides in former believers per 2 Timothy 2:13.

2 Timothy 2:.13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
All right, so you don't have an answer.

Thanks
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
No answer per usual.

We have used the Bible and completely refuted you. There isn't much else to say. If you choose to ignore the teachings of God's word, then how could a simple reformed believer change your mind. We have no authority that exceeds the CLEAR teaching of the scriptures.

Some other scripture that you might want to consider

Titus 3:9English Standard Version (ESV)

9 But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.



1 Peter 3:15English


15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and respect.



Ephesians 4:29English Standard Version (ESV)

29 Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.


2 Timothy 2:14English Standard Version (ESV)

14 Remind them of these things, and charge them before God[a] not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers.
 

Daniel.

Member
We have used the Bible and completely refuted you. There isn't much else to say. If you choose to ignore the teachings of God's word, then how could a simple reformed believer change your mind. We have no authority that exceeds the CLEAR teaching of the scriptures.

Some other scripture that you might want to consider

Titus 3:9English Standard Version (ESV)

9 But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.



1 Peter 3:15English


15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and respect.



Ephesians 4:29English Standard Version (ESV)

29 Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.


2 Timothy 2:14English Standard Version (ESV)

14 Remind them of these things, and charge them before God[a] not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers.
When you decide you want to discuss Hebrews 10:36-39, instead of pretending like you have an answer to it, the passage will be waiting for you.
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
When you decide you want to discuss Hebrews 10:36-39, instead of pretending like you have an answer to it, the passage will be waiting for you.

1. You have completely missed the theme of the book of Hebrews.

2. Anyone, I don't care who, who states, or even implies that the words of Jesus Christ are not immutable and somehow changeable is misusing scripture to the nth degree. Go tell this to Dan Corner, perhaps he won't spit at you.

immutable
[i(m)ˈmyo͞odəb(ə)l]

ADJECTIVE
immutable (adjective)
  1. unchanging over time or unable to be changed.
    "an immutable fact"
    synonyms:
    unchangeable · fixed · set · rigid · inflexible · unyielding · unbending · permanent · entrenched · established · well established · unshakeable · irremovable · indelible · ineradicable · unchanging · unchanged · changeless · unvarying · unvaried · undeviating · static · constant · lasting · abiding · enduring · persistent · perpetual
 
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Daniel.

Member
1. You have completely missed the theme of the book of Hebrews.

2. Anyone, I don't care who, who states, or even implies that the words of Jesus Christ are not immutable and somehow changeable is misusing scripture to the nth degree. Go tell this to Dan Corner, perhaps he won't spit at you.

immutable
[i(m)ˈmyo͞odəb(ə)l]

ADJECTIVE
immutable (adjective)
  1. unchanging over time or unable to be changed.
    "an immutable fact"
    synonyms:
    unchangeable · fixed · set · rigid · inflexible · unyielding · unbending · permanent · entrenched · established · well established · unshakeable · irremovable · indelible · ineradicable · unchanging · unchanged · changeless · unvarying · unvaried · undeviating · static · constant · lasting · abiding · enduring · persistent · perpetual
1. You've completely missed the theme of this thread.

2. I never denied the immutability of Jesus' Words. If you want to discuss those passages, find the appropriate subforum and create a thread and invite people to discuss them and see who's going to be interested... for the time being (this is just how this forum works) what I've done is I've made a post about Hebrews 10:36-39, and I intend on discussing that passage not getting carried away and distracted with every other verse that every other poster wants to discuss (which comes at the cost of discussing the passage I've (in the OP) expressed my desire to discuss).
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
1. You've completely missed the theme of this thread.

2. I never denied the immutability of Jesus' Words. If you want to discuss those passages, find the appropriate subforum and create a thread and invite people to discuss them and see who's going to be interested... for the time being (this is just how this forum works) what I've done is I've made a post about Hebrews 10:36-39, and I intend on discussing that passage not getting carried away and distracted with every other verse that every other poster wants to discuss (which comes at the cost of discussing the passage I've (in the OP) expressed my desire to discuss).

I haven't missed the theme of your thread. No one else has either. You just don't like the responses you are getting. Tell me, is this the fifth or sixth thread you have posted in this very forum arguing the same divisive material.
 

Daniel.

Member
I haven't missed the theme of your thread. No one else has either. You just don't like the responses you are getting. Tell me, is this the fifth or sixth thread you have posted in this very forum arguing the same divisive material.
I said you "missed" it sarcastically--because a) you wanted to claim I "missed" Hebrews' theme, and b) yet you come onto this thread and refuse to deal with the text in a straightforward way, instead wanting to run to your favorite little prooftexts. Eisegesis is all you guys know.
 

Daniel.

Member
Tell me, is this the fifth or sixth thread you have posted in this very forum arguing the same divisive material.
1. There is only a limit on how many threads may be published per day."

2. If this material is "divisive" then I suppose the entire website is "divisive" right? I'm just espousing a Scriptural view.
 
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