Thief on the cross - forgiven how?

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
When the thief on the cross died, how were his sins forgiven prior to his death?

Was he still obligated to the law and required to bring sacrifices for his confessed sins, or did Jesus forgive him with just words, a prayer?

For that matter, by what thinking did Jesus forgive others in the NT by just saying your sins are forgiven since the law still applied and sacrifices were required for those before his death, according to Christian theology?

Since Jesus didn't break the law according to Christians, what justifies him forgiving people without a sacrifice?
 
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Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
When the thief on the cross died, how were his sins forgiven prior to his death?
Imputed righteousness according to God Himself declaring his sins forgiven on credit until the death of the Savior...just like everyone else in the OT (see Abraham - Romans 2-4).
Was he still obligated to the law and required to bring sacrifices for his confessed sins, or did Jesus forgive him with just words, a prayer?
Neither. The law could not forgive sins and Jesus did not pray on behalf of the thief. Jesus, as God, declared the man would be with Jesus in Hades-Paradise that day with salvation on credit. That the man would be in Hades indicates this was a future-looking salvation that would be based on the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ just like everyone else in the OT.
For that matter, by what thinking did Jesus forgive others in the NT by just saying your sins are forgiven since the law still applied and sacrifices were required for those before his death, according to Christian theology?
While Jesus was on Earth, the NT was not in effect so the question is based on a false premise. The NT did not go into effect until the death of the Testator (Heb. 9:16).
Since Jesus didn't break the law according to Christians, what justifies him forgiving people without a sacrifice?
The blood of bulls and goats cannot forgive sins (Heb. 10:4). Only the blood of Jesus can actually forgive sins. The thief was forgiven under the OT looking forward to the blood just as Abraham, Moses, Noah, and others were credited with righteousness even though they weren't actually saved until the cross.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
Imputed righteousness according to God Himself declaring his sins forgiven on credit until the death of the Savior...just like everyone else in the OT (see Abraham - Romans 2-4).
That would be part of the Christian new covenant. The thief would be under the law, and nothing in the law states we are imputed righteousness on account of Messiah, or given credit on account of him.

I can easily say as well that Israel is saved as a result of trusting the future temple and sacrifices that will be offered, and their faith in it.

Neither. The law could not forgive sins and Jesus did not pray on behalf of the thief.
The sacrifices atoned for sins, as well as payments, incense, flour cakes, etc., when required. God forgives as a result of true repentance.

So the thief died with his sins unforgiven?

Jesus, as God, declared the man would be with Jesus in Hades-Paradise that day with salvation on credit.
Don't jump ahead of yourself. Jesus is just a man. Where does it say the thief was credited with salvation?

That the man would be in Hades indicates this was a future-looking salvation that would be based on the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ just like everyone else in the OT.
See above. Nothing in the law supports your notion.

While Jesus was on Earth, the NT was not in effect so the question is based on a false premise. The NT did not go into effect until the death of the Testator (Heb. 9:16).
So, then the thief died with no credit in his bank. Is it his fault he couldn't offer sacrifices before his death? He still had this obligation.

Since you've said the NT wasn't in effect before Jesus' death, his death can't help anyone before that.

You nullify your argument with that.

The blood of bulls and goats cannot forgive sins (Heb. 10:4).
They atoned, God forgives.

Only the blood of Jesus can actually forgive sins. The thief was forgiven under the OT looking forward to the blood just as Abraham, Moses, Noah, and others were credited with righteousness even though they weren't actually saved until the cross.
None of your words are supported in the law.
 
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Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
You asked. I answered.

To be thorough, the account of the thief on the cross is found in the NT writings, even though event took place before the NT. If you do not accept the authority and veracity of the NT, your question is based on a false premise from your perspective.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
You asked. I answered.

To be thorough, the account of the thief on the cross is found in the NT writings, even though event took place before the NT. If you do not accept the authority and veracity of the NT, your question is based on a false premise from your perspective.
I believe all of the NT, with the exception of actual quotes of Tanakh, is worthless.

Saying, as you have, that OT saints, were saved by believing something never revealed to them nor the prophets, is just nonsense. It is the standard line used by Christians, but has zero justification in Tanakh. I'm not saying this to be offensive, it just isn't supportable. The Christian point is built on a false premise which doesn't exist.

I appreciate your reply.

BTW, throughout Tanakh we are told as well that a person is credited with righteousness by obeying God's commandments, Ezekiel 18 being a prime example, as well as Abraham in Genesis 18:19.

And don't forget Proverbs 24:16,

For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.
 
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Open Heart

Well-known member
I can easily say as well that Israel is saved as a result of trusting the future temple and sacrifices that will be offered, and their faith in it.
Love it. They don't understand the flaws in their reasoning.
Time to go light candles. Shabbat shalom :)
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
No flesh is Righteous before the Lord - Enoch 81:5, Romans 3:10
Messiah is Son of God - Enoch 105:2, 1 John 5:5
Salvation hangs on the Messiah - Enoch 40:5, Acts 4:12
Salvation by repentance and belief in His name - Enoch 50:2-3, Luke 13:3
Salvation is by righteousness of Faith - Enoch 39:6, Acts 4:12
Messiah's name hinted at - Enoch 5:7, Isaiah 12:2-3
Messiah is called the Word - Enoch 90:38, John 1:1
Messiah called Son of Man - Enoch 48:10, Matthew 9:6
Son of Man exists with the Father eternally - Enoch 48:6, 2 Samuel 7:14
Messiah's shed blood necessary for salvation - Enoch 47:2,4, Matthew 26:28
Messiah preserves the righteous - Enoch 48:7, John 17:12
Messiah born of a virgin - Enoch 62:5, Isaiah 7:14
Elect One will rise from the dead - Enoch 51:5, John 21:14
Righteous One will resurrect - Enoch 92:3, John 21:14
Righteous One will give eternal life - Enoch 5:9,92:4, John 10:28
Man errs respecting Time and the calendar - Enoch 75:2,82:5.9, Luke 19:44
Ignoring prophecy is a sin - Enoch 108:6, Luke 24:25
Jews will deny the Messiah - Enoch 48:10, John 1:11
Messiah will be light unto the Nations - Enoch 48:4, Isaiah 42:6
Everyone will eventually kneel before the Messiah - Enoch 48:5,57:3, Philippians 2:10

Abram was with Noah and Shem for 39 years (Jasher ch.9)
hmmm, wonder what they taught him with no Hebrew Scriptures yet?
 
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Jewjitzu

Well-known member
No flesh is Righteous before the Lord - Enoch 81:5, Romans 3:10
Messiah is Son of God - Enoch 105:2, 1 John 5:5
Salvation hangs on the Messiah - Enoch 40:5, Acts 4:12
Salvation by repentance and belief in His name - Enoch 50:2-3, Luke 13:3
Salvation is by righteousness of Faith - Enoch 39:6, Acts 4:12
Messiah's name hinted at - Enoch 5:7, Isaiah 12:2-3
Messiah is called the Word - Enoch 90:38, John 1:1
Messiah called Son of Man - Enoch 48:10, Matthew 9:6
Son of Man exists with the Father eternally - Enoch 48:6, 2 Samuel 7:14
Messiah's shed blood necessary for salvation - Enoch 47:2,4, Matthew 26:28
Messiah preserves the righteous - Enoch 48:7, John 17:12
Messiah born of a virgin - Enoch 62:5, Isaiah 7:14
Elect One will rise from the dead - Enoch 51:5, John 21:14
Righteous One will resurrect - Enoch 92:3, John 21:14
Righteous One will give eternal life - Enoch 5:9,92:4, John 10:28
Man errs respecting Time and the calendar - Enoch 75:2,82:5.9, Luke 19:44
Ignoring prophecy is a sin - Enoch 108:6, Luke 24:25
Jews will deny the Messiah - Enoch 48:10, John 1:11
Messiah will be light unto the Nations - Enoch 48:4, Isaiah 42:6
Everyone will eventually kneel before the Messiah - Enoch 48:5,57:3, Philippians 2:10

Abram was with Noah and Shem for 39 years (Jasher ch.9)
hmmm, wonder what they taught him with no Hebrew Scriptures yet?
Funny, you quote a book that is not part of the cannon. Is the Koran and Book of Mormon quotable for you too?
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
a book that is not part of the cannon
the Cannon itself mentions some

Book of Jasher 1 Kings 10:12-13,
Book of the Wars of the Lord Numbers 21:14
Gad the Seer 1 Chronicles 29:29
Nathan the Prophet 1 Chronicles 29:29
Kings of Judah 1 Kings 14:29
more Proverbs and Songs of Solomon 1 Kings 4:32

God's people have always been Literate - since Enoch anyway

"My son Methuselah, I will reveal to you all my visions which
I have seen. I had two visions (of the Flood) before I took a wife,
and the two were vastly different. The first occurred when I was
just learning to read and write, and the second was right before
I married your mother. I was awestruck by them, so I continued to pray
to the Lord about them." Enoch ch. 83
 
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Jewjitzu

Well-known member
the Cannon itself mentions some

Book of Jasher 1 Kings 10:12-13,
Book of the Wars of the Lord Numbers 21:14
Gad the Seer 1 Chronicles 29:29
Nathan the Prophet 1 Chronicles 29:29
Kings of Judah 1 Kings 14:29
more Proverbs and Songs of Solomon 1 Kings 4:32

God's people have always been Literate - since Enoch anyway

"My son Methuselah, I will reveal to you all my visions which
I have seen. I had two visions (of the Flood) before I took a wife,
and the two were vastly different. The first occurred when I was
just learning to read and write, and the second was right before
I married your mother. I was awestruck by them, so I continued to pray
to the Lord about them." Enoch ch. 83
Again what you quote is not part of the Canon. Just like the NT.
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
head and not the tail - Enoch 103:11, Isaiah 9:14
sinners will be weighed in the balances - Enoch 41:1, Daniel 5:27
protected under His wings - Enoch 39:7, Psalms 17:8
valley of dry bones - Enoch 90:4, Ezekiel 37:4
God omniscient and omnipotent - Enoch 9:5, Jeremiah 23:24
Iran will attack Israel - Enoch 56:5-7, Ezekiel 38-39
Son of Man existed before any created thing - Enoch 48:2-3,6 Psalms 102:25-27
there will be 7000 years of History - Enoch 93
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
head and not the tail - Enoch 103:11, Isaiah 9:14
sinners will be weighed in the balances - Enoch 41:1, Daniel 5:27
protected under His wings - Enoch 39:7, Psalms 17:8
valley of dry bones - Enoch 90:4, Ezekiel 37:4
God omniscient and omnipotent - Enoch 9:5, Jeremiah 23:24
Iran will attack Israel - Enoch 56:5-7, Ezekiel 38-39
Son of Man existed before any created thing - Enoch 48:2-3,6 Psalms 102:25-27
there will be 7000 years of History - Enoch 93
Again, why do you quote what's not in the Canon? You don't even know if the so called books named in Tanakh are the same ones you have copies of.

But anyway, can you talk about the OP?
 

Algernon

Active member
Nothing. What precludes Jews today being forgiven without blood sacrifices? Nothing.

When the thief on the cross died, how were his sins forgiven prior to his death?
True repentance.
Was he still obligated to the law and required to bring sacrifices for his confessed sins, or did Jesus forgive him with just words, a prayer?

No and No. Is that the underlying point of the OP?
 
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Algernon

Active member
No. True repentance for a thief would require returning, paying back what was stolen.
For one, there's much that is unknown about the thief. For example, whether or not he had paid back what was stolen, whether or not he was apprehended prior to being able to do so, etc.

For another, according to Ezekiel 18 and Isaiah1, true repentance entails ceasing to do evil, making oneself a new heart and spirit, etc.

The point of the OP is the thief was still under the law and required to abide by it. If he was forgiven by just his words, then today's Jews are as well.
Forgiven by just his words? Not sure if you understood my response of "No and No". The second "No" applies to the second part of your two part question.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
When the thief on the cross died, how were his sins forgiven prior to his death?
The shed blood on the cross was all-sufficient and transcends time. God's grace doesn't merely "forgive" a transgression...and the transgressor moves on chastised. God's grace is such that the very writing of the indictment against him is erased, and there is no longer any record of sin.

Was he still obligated to the law and required to bring sacrifices for his confessed sins, or did Jesus forgive him with just words, a prayer?
As for you, if you'd receive it...the sacrifice for his confessed sin had been brought at that moment. He was a witness to Jesus' sacrificial act, and received what he saw...what you reject. Jesus merely spoke, acknowledging the reality of that act.

For that matter, by what thinking did Jesus forgive others in the NT by just saying your sins are forgiven since the law still applied and sacrifices were required for those before his death, according to Christian theology?
If you read carefully...Jesus didn't "speak forgiveness" in terms of releasing it magically by a word. The woman had been "forgiven much" because she loved much. The woman came and poured liquid love on Jesus' feet...she had already been forgiven, and Jesus merely recognized it. And her forgiveness was by virtue of the law that connects all penitent hearts to the blood of the cross...for ALL time.

Since Jesus didn't break the law according to Christians, what justifies him forgiving people without a sacrifice?
...kind of weird saying "without a sacrifice"...when Jesus' actions are so clearly witnessed to for all time throughout history.
 
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