Thief on the cross - forgiven how?

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
"Yes...you have a body. God has a body...and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. For a season, immortality put on mortality, so that mortality could be swallowed up in immortality." As I said...and here, the "Body" that created is the WORD. At creation, that which formed and molded all things including all things physical, is the WORD.
How is the word a body?
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
Actually he adequately proved his point. He QUOTED you saying this. Thus, it is not a falsehood.
Yeah, thanks...

He showed me where in the 900 post thread, and I admit I was wrong, both in denying what I said and in what I said...

I also have discussed the context of my error in response to his. I've apologized, and we've moved on...and thanks.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
How is the word a body?
That one is easy...Your body is that part of you that takes the material world, and shapes it, makes it and molds it.

That's what the Word of the living God did and continues to do...There would be NO material world without the Word. He holds all things together by the power of His Word.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
That one is easy...Your body is that part of you that takes the material world, and shapes it, makes it and molds it.
The body is physical.

That's what the Word of the living God did and continues to do...There would be NO material world without the Word. He holds all things together by the power of His Word.
You didn't answer the question. How is the word a body? You're making stuff up. How is the "word" a physical tzelem?

What is spiritual form?
 
Last edited:

tbeachhead

Well-known member
Yep, you admit to 3 gods. At least 2 have separate bodies.
No...Could you please show me where I've "admitted to three gods?" Or apologize because I can categorically state that you misrepresent my view according to your own bigoted and deliberate misunderstanding every time. The separate bodies thing, we've seen, is a matter that you cannot understand...The spirit realm can be seen in the spirit...hence Michael sees the Prince of Tyre and does battle in the spirit.

My translation shows "God".
Of course it does. See above...the Hebrew is shown as "plural" when it is parsed. Folks follow the paradoxical license the shema gives you. Gods One.


And YHWH shows singular. Context determines the meaning.
It's a proper name. Always singular. The name of your Gods Who is One is YHWH...and He (Elohim) is one.

Will is same as spirit.
No...You are confused. Will is the same as the soul/nephesh. It's often attributed to the heart, and will very often and for that reason, be misunderstood as spirit. Breath and Spirit are the same.


I see God, not gods.
It would be a miraculous healing if you saw...Isaiah says otherwise.

The same word Elohim is used twice. You tell me why the translator made the choice. Usually they choose because they seek to clarify the sense in terms that the target language will allow.

Let me show you a quandary you and I haven't discussed, a terrible translation that is always preferred over what the context demands. I'm sure we'll agree here...I'm going to take you to the day Israel convinced Aaron to make the golden calf.

Exodus 32:1Now when the people saw that Moses was delayed in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said, “Come, make us gods (elohim) who will go before us. As for this Moses who brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has happened to him!”​
2So Aaron told them, “Take off the gold earrings that are on your wives and sons and daughters, and bring them to me.”​
3Then all the people took off their gold earrings and brought them to Aaron. 4He took the gold from their hands, and with an engraving tool he fashioned it into a (Notice: singular) molten calf. And they said, “These, O Israel, are your gods, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt!”​
5When Aaron saw this, he built an altar before the calf and proclaimed: “Tomorrow shall be a feast to the LORD (Hebrew: YHWH).”​

You have to notice what I highlighted...They ask Aaron to make them "Elohim" to go before them. They don't want GODS, after what El Elohenu did for them. They want Elohim, God. Singular. And Aaron fashions Elohim...God Singular...in the form of a single calf, not a multitude of calfs.

This is mistranslated universally in every language where I am able to read the translation...Why? Because no one understands the paradox of the Shama. Proof? Aaron doesn't declare a feast day unto many Gods....He declares a feast day unto the LORD YHWH. They wanted to do what you do and worship Elohim on their terms and according to their traditions, as they learned to worship the Egyptian gods in Egypt. It's idolatry and invention even when you think you're worshiping YHWH...and that's why God gets mad and sends Moses back down the mountain.

Here, the plural is used, and even the translators get it wrong, like you continuously do. Have you ever noticed this? Your translation gets this wrong as well, even though you're problably relying on a decent Jewish translation of the Tenach.

But your gods are different persons and different bodies. That isn't one.
No...I've never said "persons" because the traditional explanation is inadequate...and you can go all the way back to the beginning of our conversations to confirm this. I'm not three persons...I'm not gifted to describe it adequately and I always fall short...but the soul has a realm, and ends in Sheol...the spirit has a realm and returns to the Lord, and the body has a realm, a physical realm and returns to the dust. The three function as a single being...and each functions independently. In the world, my spirit is at constant war with my flesh, and the battle ground is the soul/will where the decision to worship comes from. Do I worship God and the Spirit, or do I turn to food/drink/porn and my flesh? This is where salvation plays out, and I told you I don't do this adequately.

That's not one anymore.
Your limitations talking. Jesus said, "I and the Father echad."

I'm sure. The flesh is weak. Blindness is a handicap. You probably should read that a few times.

Yes, creation is a witness to His glory.
Correct...and corroborates His Word as Truth.


No, I've said your spiritual is really physical.
I'm sure you have...it's the best you can do when spirit for you is a weather report.

No, I admit that visions and riddles aren't reality.
You claim...erroneously.

I admit my God is exclusively one, and non-physical.
I admit that your invented god is all that...and limited by you to that and only that...and he will obey your limits to the limit.
Define spiritual form for me.
Read Daniel. Read Ezekiel. Read Isaiah 6. Read Revelation.

So we're back to a physical form for you. Or can you define spiritual form for me?
You've never left the physical...it's as far as your understanding will extend.

Actually, we passed it and left your gods behind ;)

I've known this since last year.
Looking forward to what you think of the mistranslation above....Let me know.
 
Last edited:

tbeachhead

Well-known member
The body is physical.


You didn't answer the question. How is the word a body? You're making stuff up. How is the "word" a physical tzelem?

What is spiritual form?
I was hoping you could understand the elementary basics...I'm sorry. I did answer...it is by the Word that everything is formed...as if by hands. I don't think you will be able to see this either.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
I was hoping you could understand the elementary basics...I'm sorry. I did answer...it is by the Word that everything is formed...as if by hands. I don't think you will be able to see this either.
No, you didn't answer.

Where is "word" described as a physical body in Tanakh.

And you haven't answered what is spiritual form.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
No, you didn't answer.

Where is "word" described as a physical body in Tanakh.
It's a NT revelation...The prophet/apostle John brought it to light with a rehash of Genesis 1 seen from the Spirit in the first chapter of John's gospel of your Messiah. In Genesis you see the Word doing the creation of everything material...Nothing is created without the word creating it. Everything physical is made by the Word.

And even so, Genesis 1 makes the Word seem inanimate and flat, not sharper than a two edged sword able to separate bone and marrow, soul and spirit.

And you haven't answered what is spiritual form.
The descriptions I referred to are all I can give you. Address the other post. I am sincerely curious as to what you think of the constant mistranslation of that passage from Exodus.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
It's a NT revelation...The prophet/apostle John brought it to light with a rehash of Genesis 1 seen from the Spirit in the first chapter of John's gospel of your Messiah. In Genesis you see the Word doing the creation of everything material...Nothing is created without the word creating it. Everything physical is made by the Word.
Even the NT doesn't say the word was physical prior to the creation of man. You've even said that the word only incarnated at a later time.

As evidenced previously, the Tanakh is clear the Father spoke creation into existence with no other involvement from anyone in a godhead, nor other person.

So, this is not an explanation and fails.

And even so, Genesis 1 makes the Word seem inanimate and flat, not sharper than a two edged sword able to separate bone and marrow, soul and spirit.
Sorry, you're not making any points.

The descriptions I referred to are all I can give you. Address the other post. I am sincerely curious as to what you think of the constant mistranslation of that passage from Exodus.
So you can't support that the Word was physical and used as the basis for giving man his body.

What is a spiritual form? You're running away from answering this.

Why should I address anything else when you can't address what I've asked you?

I don't know what mistranslation you're talking about. Sorry.
 
Last edited:

Dizerner

Well-known member
There's no satisfactory expiation of sins under Judaism that truly honors the holiness of God.

Sin must be punished in accordance with how evil it is, or God is fundamentally dishonored.

Sin cannot receive a slap on the wrist, or simply be overlooked—the "covering," the atonement, can never be skipped.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
No...Could you please show me where I've "admitted to three gods?" Or apologize because I can categorically state that you misrepresent my view according to your own bigoted and deliberate misunderstanding every time. The separate bodies thing, we've seen, is a matter that you cannot understand...The spirit realm can be seen in the spirit...hence Michael sees the Prince of Tyre and does battle in the spirit.
You believe there are gods in the Shema, so why would you expect me not to think otherwise? You have two bodies in Daniel 7 that you accept as gods, so why would you expect me to say otherwise?

Of course it does. See above...the Hebrew is shown as "plural" when it is parsed. Folks follow the paradoxical license the shema gives you. Gods One.
No, polytheists follow that thinking. YHWH is a singular name associated with Elohim in the shema. It's straightforward how to interpret and context shows a singular God.

It's a proper name. Always singular. The name of your Gods Who is One is YHWH...and He (Elohim) is one.
Yes, and He has that name alone. Not "we" have that name alone.

No...You are confused. Will is the same as the soul/nephesh. It's often attributed to the heart, and will very often and for that reason, be misunderstood as spirit. Breath and Spirit are the same.
With respect to God, nephesh and ruach mean the same thing, will.

It would be a miraculous healing if you saw...Isaiah says otherwise.
It can't any clearer - visions and riddles.

The same word Elohim is used twice. You tell me why the translator made the choice. Usually they choose because they seek to clarify the sense in terms that the target language will allow.
Because "destroyed" is singular and God singularly destroyed. Foreign gods are understood as plural.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
No...I've never said "persons" because the traditional explanation is inadequate...and you can go all the way back to the beginning of our conversations to confirm this. I'm not three persons...I'm not gifted to describe it adequately and I always fall short...but the soul has a realm, and ends in Sheol...the spirit has a realm and returns to the Lord, and the body has a realm, a physical realm and returns to the dust. The three function as a single being...and each functions independently. In the world, my spirit is at constant war with my flesh, and the battle ground is the soul/will where the decision to worship comes from. Do I worship God and the Spirit, or do I turn to food/drink/porn and my flesh? This is where salvation plays out, and I told you I don't do this adequately.
Ok, I'll verify if this true, and will apologize if I'm wrong.

But, I got to ask, if you don't believe your god consists of 3 persons, I don't know why you're arguing the plural usage of gods in Gen 1:26, or elsewhere, because it wouldn't make sense otherwise. So, do you accept the plural of Majesty idea for that verse?

Why focus on the magic number 3 and not more? Why don't you include the 7 spirits of God, or His attributes/actions in Exodus 34:6-7?

Your limitations talking. Jesus said, "I and the Father echad."
One in will. He also said he wanted his disciples to be one with them too.

I admit that your invented god is all that...and limited by you to that and only that...and he will obey your limits to the limit.
Rotfl... this is funny considering you don't define what body the word has or what is spirit form.

Read Daniel. Read Ezekiel. Read Isaiah 6. Read Revelation.
It doesn't define what spirit form is. Use tzelem and ruach and prove your point.

You've never left the physical...it's as far as your understanding will extend.
Actually it always comes back to you believing an actual physical tzelem of God created man. My idea is non-physical.

Looking forward to what you think of the mistranslation above....Let me know.
I'll seriously look at this over Shabbat. The translations are all over the place that I've seen.
 
Last edited:

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
Let me show you a quandary you and I haven't discussed, a terrible translation that is always preferred over what the context demands. I'm sure we'll agree here...I'm going to take you to the day Israel convinced Aaron to make the golden calf.
Ok, before I give my opinion on the verses below, let me go a little further back and provide some information that may not be readily in people's minds. When we look at Exodus 7:1, we see the following:


YHWH made Moses God/Gods to Pharaoh, and Moses would be the person that would be the face for the plagues that were to be brought upon Egypt. Egyptians were used to the idea that gods incarnated in the form of humans, and Pharaoh was just that in their minds. In fact their gods had human forms with heads of other animals. The Egyptian pantheon of gods included gods for death, sun, storms, fertility, etc.

Moses was seen as God/Gods in that he brought about the plagues on Egypt. One person was responsible for the equivalent action of all of Egypt's gods.

Exodus 32:1Now when the people saw that Moses was delayed in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said, “Come, make us gods (elohim) who will go before us. As for this Moses who brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has happened to him!”​
Moses was the intermediary for God who acted as all of the gods of Egypt in power and might. The people were asking for a substitute for Moses to go before them.

2So Aaron told them, “Take off the gold earrings that are on your wives and sons and daughters, and bring them to me.”​
3Then all the people took off their gold earrings and brought them to Aaron. 4He took the gold from their hands, and with an engraving tool he fashioned it into a (Notice: singular) molten calf. And they said, “These, O Israel, are your gods, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt!”​
The singular calf was representative of Moses, who encompassed all the might of the gods under one object, person. There wasn't a need to make multiple calves when one can do the job.

5When Aaron saw this, he built an altar before the calf and proclaimed: “Tomorrow shall be a feast to the LORD (Hebrew: YHWH).”​
Yes, this was totally wrong. Worshipping a masecah, god with a covering, as in a vail of flesh, would be idolatrous, Exodus 34:17.

This is mistranslated universally in every language where I am able to read the translation...Why? Because no one understands the paradox of the Shama. Proof?
There's no paradox. There's only one YHWH alone.

Aaron doesn't declare a feast day unto many Gods....He declares a feast day unto the LORD YHWH. They wanted to do what you do and worship Elohim on their terms and according to their traditions, as they learned to worship the Egyptian gods in Egypt. It's idolatry and invention even when you think you're worshiping YHWH...and that's why God gets mad and sends Moses back down the mountain.
Actually, the idolatry was thinking that God could incarnate in human or any other physical form for that matter. That originated with the Egyptians that their Pharaoh's were human gods and that idea carried forward in this event with the people even though God had already revealed that He had no form, Deut 4:9,12,15,35.

Here, the plural is used, and even the translators get it wrong, like you continuously do. Have you ever noticed this? Your translation gets this wrong as well, even though you're problably relying on a decent Jewish translation of the Tenach.
I generally use Artscroll, but even then I rely more on the Hebrew and my Etymological Hirsch Dictionary for study purposes.

No...Could you please show me where I've "admitted to three gods?" Or apologize because I can categorically state that you misrepresent my view according to your own bigoted and deliberate misunderstanding every time. The separate bodies thing, we've seen, is a matter that you cannot understand...The spirit realm can be seen in the spirit...hence Michael sees the Prince of Tyre and does battle in the spirit.
https://forums.carm.org/threads/thief-on-the-cross-forgiven-how.4749/post-427999, You make reference to God as three persons with the encounter of Abraham in Gen 18. How am I to understand this? They have three bodies and you've said your god only has one body.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
There's no satisfactory expiation of sins under Judaism that truly honors the holiness of God.
Well, there isn't an expiation of sins under Christianity.

This is evident in that Christian theology teaches that your god takes on a nature not His own. And this new nature is separate from the divine nature. So, God Himself never takes on sins, bleeds, dies, etc.

The fact that people still die even with Jesus' blood, shows the debt remains.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
You believe there are gods in the Shema, so why would you expect me not to think otherwise? You have two bodies in Daniel 7 that you accept as gods, so why would you expect me to say otherwise?
I only erroneously expect your ability to read to improve. I don't want to expect this repeated false statement due to inability to read...

I believe "Elohenu" is deliberately plural...I believe Elohenu Echad contradicts your claim completely. I believe you cannot read, and you do not know a paradox when you've recited it all your life...I believe you want to repeat false claims, because you find weird comfort in it.

No, polytheists follow that thinking.
Actuallty...it was a parsing concordance that recognizes "Elohim", which you refuse to.

YHWH is a singular name associated with Elohim in the shema.
...because it's in the verse, and emphasizes the indivisible Unity of Word and Will and Spirit...
It's straightforward how to interpret and context shows a singular God.
So stop claiming I'm saying otherwise, and start reading your language as if the Word knows more than you do.

Yes, and He has that name alone. Not "we" have that name alone.
Hmmm...you're right...

...yet..."Let us..." is often repeated in contradiction to your claim.

With respect to God, nephesh and ruach mean the same thing, will.
Nope...That's actually false doctrine that some Christian sects have developed as well. It only leads to confusion, as we see here.

Because you know better. Ruach is breath...Nephesh is where that breath goes...because "the soul of the living is in his blood." You're biggest problem is that of any unbeliever. You cannot divide soul and spirit. It takes the Word of God to do that. The Breath is the life of the blood. The Blood is the life of the flesh...The Flesh contains it all, utilizes it all and produces its fruit. Three...and Wholly, organically ONE. As with God so with Man in Whose image he is made.


[/quote]It can't any clearer - visions and riddles.[/quote]Yep...nothing clearer than a riddle.

Nothing more describable than a vision...but you cannot see that. You are the fulfillment of prophecy.

Because "destroyed" is singular and God singularly destroyed. Foreign gods are understood as plural.
Destroyed doesn't modify God or YHWH. It modifies the people destroyed. Learn grammar.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
Ok, I'll verify if this true, and will apologize if I'm wrong.
You don't have to worry about it. I have always agreed that the terminology is unfortunate. My spirit is not another person, it's just my spirit, and it communicates with the spiritual realm/dimension. "Deep calls unto deep..." My soul is the liaison between the spirit and the flesh..It is the will and chooses which, either spirit or flesh, plays the dominant role.

But, I got to ask, if you don't believe your god consists of 3 persons, I don't know why you're arguing the plural usage of gods in Gen 1:26, or elsewhere, because it wouldn't make sense otherwise. So, do you accept the plural of Majesty idea for that verse?
I'm recognizing the plural usage of "gods" in Gen 1:26, because I recognize how Elohenu chooses to describe Himself. I don't ever ignore or seek to compromise Elohenu's choices. Why do you not see three interacting deliberately at creation? God creating the Word doing ALL the work, the Breath/Spirit brooding, and making the nephesh come to life?

Why focus on the magic number 3 and not more?
;) I didn't write the book. I make observations, and comment on the authors' choices.
Why don't you include the 7 spirits of God, or His attributes/actions in Exodus 34:6-7?
I'm in Genesis. The seven spirits and the four winds and the rest will come up later. Start the thread.

One in will.
That would be a unity of soul and body...Yep.
He also said he wanted his disciples to be one with them too.
Yep...he did. He also said the husband becomes one with the wife...as YHWH espoused Israel.

Rotfl... this is funny considering you don't define what body the word has or what is spirit form.
Nope...but I do see the Word forming everything material...and I do see the spirit represented graphically throughout the scripture from Genesis to Maps. I also see you having difficulty recognizing that vision SEES spiritual reality.

It doesn't define what spirit form is. Use tzelem and ruach and prove your point.
See above. Explain why none of the prophets saw what they said they saw. When you tell me why in your invention they could not have seen, I'll be able to help you see that they saw what they said they saw.

Actually it always comes back to you believing an actual physical tzelem of God created man. My idea is non-physical.
Not quite. It always comes back to me believing Daniel who had the experience and described what he say...and not you, who cannot believe Daniel.

I'll seriously look at this over Shabbat. The translations are all over the place that I've seen.
That's up next...It was a long weekend waiting for this privilege. Grateful.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
I only erroneously expect your ability to read to improve. I don't want to expect this repeated false statement due to inability to read...
You've already noted your translation of "gods". You've also previously said how your gods showed up in 3 bodies/persons in Genesis 18. Enough said.


I believe "Elohenu" is deliberately plural...I believe Elohenu Echad contradicts your claim completely.
Context... context. YHWH is a singular name. Echad is absolutely one here.

I believe you cannot read, and you do not know a paradox when you've recited it all your life...I believe you want to repeat false claims, because you find weird comfort in it.
I know you've consistently contradicted yourself all over. Your focus on plurals for elohim is gods, which means you believe and accepted just that.... 3 gods.

Actuallty...it was a parsing concordance that recognizes "Elohim", which you refuse to.
You still don't understand context, verb agreement, etc.

...because it's in the verse, and emphasizes the indivisible Unity of Word and Will and Spirit...
There is no mention of word, will, or spirit here. Why make it up?

So stop claiming I'm saying otherwise, and start reading your language as if the Word knows more than you do.
You are. You keep emphasizing plural gods.

Hmmm...you're right...

...yet..."Let us..." is often repeated in contradiction to your claim.
Yes. But never "let us" have the same name. Either the angels are being spoken to, creative forces, etc.

Nope...That's actually false doctrine that some Christian sects have developed as well. It only leads to confusion, as we see here.
The confusion is yours, as your error leads to 3 bodies for your gods in Genesis 18.

Because you know better. Ruach is breath...Nephesh is where that breath goes...because "the soul of the living is in his blood." You're biggest problem is that of any unbeliever. You cannot divide soul and spirit. It takes the Word of God to do that. The Breath is the life of the blood. The Blood is the life of the flesh...The Flesh contains it all, utilizes it all and produces its fruit. Three...and Wholly, organically ONE. As with God so with Man in Whose image he is made.
You're confusion these words as they apply to man, and applying it God who isn't human or physical.

tbeachhead said:
Yep...nothing clearer than a riddle.
And that's why you can't see these visions are reality.

tbeachhead said:
Nothing more describable than a vision...but you cannot see that. You are the fulfillment of prophecy.
We sure are. Chosen and loved.

tbeachhead said:
Destroyed doesn't modify God or YHWH. It modifies the people destroyed. Learn grammar.
No, it modifies God. It's the action He took. Verb agreement.
 
Last edited:

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
I'm recognizing the plural usage of "gods" in Gen 1:26, because I recognize how Elohenu chooses to describe Himself. I don't ever ignore or seek to compromise Elohenu's choices. Why do you not see three interacting deliberately at creation?
Why do you focus on 3 and not more, if you're being honest to the grammar?

So why do you ignore when God says He's alone, exclusively one, ie, Neh 9:6 and elsewhere.

God creating the Word doing ALL the work, the Breath/Spirit brooding, and making the nephesh come to life?
So the word is created and not the God. Ok. Only one person here.

;) I didn't write the book. I make observations, and comment on the authors' choices. I'm in Genesis. The seven spirits and the four winds and the rest will come up later. Start the thread.
Ok. Genesis 1:26 says nothing about numbers, and yet you focus on 3.

That would be a unity of soul and body...Yep. Yep...he did.
The soul is the same as the body for humans.

He also said the husband becomes one with the wife...as YHWH espoused Israel.
And yet husband and wife are separate bodies. They become one in their children.

Nope...but I do see the Word forming everything material...
So, you keep running away from defining what physical tzelem the word has to create mankind?

and I do see the spirit represented graphically throughout the scripture from Genesis to Maps. I also see you having difficulty recognizing that vision SEES spiritual reality.
I see you can't use tzelem or ruach to define your spirit form. You have a weak argument here. It really isn't an argument just you're own unsupported opinion.

See above. Explain why none of the prophets saw what they said they saw.
They saw visions and riddles as God said they did.

When you tell me why in your invention they could not have seen, I'll be able to help you see that they saw what they said they saw.
See above.

Not quite. It always comes back to me believing Daniel who had the experience and described what he say...and not you, who cannot believe Daniel.
So, you believe your gods have separate bodies. That's not one.

That's up next...It was a long weekend waiting for this privilege. Grateful.
Enjoy.
 
Last edited:
Top