Thief on the cross - forgiven how?

tbeachhead

Well-known member
Ok, before I give my opinion on the verses below, let me go a little further back and provide some information that may not be readily in people's minds. When we look at Exodus 7:1, we see the following:


YHWH made Moses God/Gods to Pharaoh, and Moses would be the person that would be the face for the plagues that were to be brought upon Egypt. Egyptians were used to the idea that gods incarnated in the form of humans, and Pharaoh was just that in their minds. In fact their gods had human forms with heads of other animals. The Egyptian pantheon of gods included gods for death, sun, storms, fertility, etc.
The Egyptian pantheon notwithstanding, this is not what Elohim was saying. I'm sure you know that. Moses was the representative of Elohim YHWH Himself, and Aaron was his messenger/word. Elohenu has no respect for the false gods, and makes that clear...calls them gods who are no gods.

Moses was seen as God/Gods in that he brought about the plagues on Egypt. One person was responsible for the equivalent action of all of Egypt's gods.
One represented the One El Elyon Elohenu. One brought judgment on the false gods. Moses was not seen by the Israelites as Elohim...ever.

Moses was the intermediary for God who acted as all of the gods of Egypt in power and might. The people were asking for a substitute for Moses to go before them.
This is what you came up with? And they made a calf? To replace Moses?

How does that make sense? Moses did not go before them. The fire by night and the smoke by day went before them. They did not ask Aaron to make a "Moses" to go before them..."Moses is taking a long time. We don't know how much longer he'll be there...Make us Elohim." Not, "Make us Moses." The smoke and the cloud were on the top of the mountain. That was the problem.


The singular calf was representative of Moses, who encompassed all the might of the gods under one object, person. There wasn't a need to make multiple calves when one can do the job.
Then the people worshiped Moses...Not God. And Moses in the shape of cattle.

And you agree with my point despite your strange contention: It is always mistranslated "gods". They wanted Aaron to make a statue of YHWH Elohim.

Yes, this was totally wrong. Worshipping a masecah, god with a covering, as in a vail of flesh, would be idolatrous, Exodus 34:17.
Of course it was wrong...and the translation is error on every count. They wanted YHWH on their terms, and according to their invention, just as you do today. It's never been right.

There's no paradox. There's only one YHWH alone.
YHWH Elohenu (NMP)...paradox.

Actually, the idolatry was thinking that God could incarnate in human or any other physical form for that matter. That originated with the Egyptians that their Pharaoh's were human gods and that idea carried forward in this event with the people even though God had already revealed that He had no form, Deut 4:9,12,15,35.
You're inventing. You have to retreat to your invention to protect your own limitations...

I read, for example, Genesis 18:16When the men got up to leave, they looked out over Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them off. I see "men". What do you see? There were three of them...They sat and ate with Abraham. Sarai made them a meal. We're talking hours of elapsed time.

And then this:
17And the LORD said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and through him all the nations of the earth will be blessed. 19For I have chosen him, so that he will command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just, in order that the LORD may bring upon Abraham what He has promised.”

Who is talking, according to the scripture? Who do you say is talking? Is He talking? Did He just eat lunch?

20Then the LORD said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great. Because their sin is so grievous, 21I will go down to see if their actions fully justify the outcry that has reached Me. If not, I will find out.”Who is talking? What form has He taken? How is He talking? Why three? Why are they a singular YHWH doing the talking?

22And the two men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD.Who left? Who does the scripture say remained? Who do you say remained?

23Abraham stepped forward and said, “Will You really sweep away the righteous with the wicked? To whom is Abram talking? Did I ever call Him three Gods? Ever? I understand what I'm reading, and I know YHWH Elohenu appeared to Abram...and I know how the appearance is described. At no point do I see three "gods". I see YHWH Elohenu, echad. Simple as that. You're stuck with invention because you cannot accept that Elohim is NMP

I generally use Artscroll, but even then I rely more on the Hebrew and my Etymological Hirsch Dictionary for study purposes.
Does your translation say "Make us gods?" or "Make God for us?"

https://forums.carm.org/threads/thief-on-the-cross-forgiven-how.4749/post-427999, You make reference to God as three persons with the encounter of Abraham in Gen 18. How am I to understand this? They have three bodies and you've said your god only has one body.
See above. It's not three Gods...It's just His appearance...as three. He is One. The fact that HE appears as three is just mystery...not limitation. You cannot deny the three...and you cannot deny bodily form...and I have yet to read a decent explanation...though I understand body has a realm soul has a realm and spirit has a realm. Sometimes realms meet...
 
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tbeachhead

Well-known member
You've already noted your translation of "gods". You've also previously said how your gods showed up in 3 bodies/persons in Genesis 18. Enough said.

And above...YHWH is absolutely singular...and there are three that are HE...all at the same time, ONE.

Context... context. YHWH is a singular name. Echad is absolutely one here.
That's right! Absolutely ONE. Only One speaks to Abraham as the Three commune. And there is no contradiction.

I know you've consistently contradicted yourself all over. Your focus on plurals for elohim is gods, which means you believe and accepted just that.... 3 gods.
False claim, and deliberately artificial misunderstanding. I focus on the Hebrew because the WORD Elohim is NMP: noun masculine plural. Every time. I'm able to read it that way. You must prevent yourself from acknowledging what your language actually says, and in denial, artificially make the word "GODS" "god"...It's invention and denial, the root of your religion.

You still don't understand context, verb agreement, etc.
One of us is forced to deny...the other reads and understands.

There is no mention of word, will, or spirit here. Why make it up?
Because the plural is recognized as ONE...the Three appear and create cooperatively on page one of the Torah.

You are. You keep emphasizing plural gods.
No...but that's the best you're willing to do. I keep emphasizing the Hebrew language that you are forced to keep denying. NMP.

Yes. But never "let us" have the same name. Either the angels are being spoken to, creative forces, etc.
Hmm...Except...no angels...You had the Will. You had the Word He spoke...and you have the Spirit brooding over the waters. Not a single angel...yet Three...Echad...God doesn't talk cooperatively to forces as if He needed anyone else to help Him...You see how you are forced to invent to protect your misunderstanding and to justify accusing me?


The confusion is yours, as your error leads to 3 bodies for your gods in Genesis 18.
My great, painstaking care leads me to read objectively, to allow scripture to instruct me. I do not seek to instruct the Word in His meaning.

You're confusing these words as they apply to man, and applying it God who isn't human or physical.
The confusion is yours. We are in His image, and His likeness...and in us, three likewise interact and are one. Who created everything physical and interacts as He wills in the way He foreordained, without seeking your approval or the approval of your invention.

And that's why you can't see these visions are reality.
Huh? I'm telling you these visions are spiritual reality. You were denying the reality of spiritual bodies...They are real...and describable.
We sure are. Chosen and loved.
Wrong prophecy...“Go and tell this people,
‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’b
10Make the hearts of this people calloused;
deafen their ears and close their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed.”

That's the prophecy you continue to fulfill.

No, it modifies God. It's the action He took. Verb agreement.
You need to learn grammar. The participle is the action...that which was destroyed is that which the participle modifies...
 
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tbeachhead

Well-known member
Why do you focus on 3 and not more, if you're being honest to the grammar?
Because the Tenach will always present God Elohim as Will and Word and Spirit, ONE. Never more...and honest and consistent with the grammar, as I continue to show you.

So why do you ignore when God says He's alone, exclusively one, ie, Neh 9:6 and elsewhere.
I don't. I never said He wasn't alone...The Father Willed, the Son was Spoken, and the Spirit brought life. Only One, before the earth ever was, YHWH Elohenu created.

So the word is created and not the God. Ok. Only one person here.
That's nonsensical. The Word is not "created". The Word creates, and is Spoken according to the Will and the Spirit. Without the Word there is NO creation. There is nothing made that was made without HIM.

Ok. Genesis 1:26 says nothing about numbers, and yet you focus on 3.
You focus on numbers. I just read.

If you want numbers, you have to go back to the beginning: 1In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

That's the Father...

2Now the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep. And the Spirit of God was brooding over the surface of the waters.

That's the Spirit.

3And God said, “Let there be light,” And that's the word.

Clear and simple.
The soul is the same as the body for humans.
Nope...

The soul is in the blood for all life.

And yet husband and wife are separate bodies. They become one in their children.
Not what God says...but you have to keep it concrete.

So, you keep running away from defining what physical tzelem the word has to create mankind?
I don't keep running away from nonsense. Your question is nonsense...How does the Word have the POWER to move everything Physical, and to create from tohu wa bohu. That's the question you need to deal with. How is all matter formed by the WORD, Who is God by Whom all things were created and without WHOM was not anything made that was made.

The Word is that which enacts, interacts and creates everything material according to the Will of Elohenu.
I see you can't use tzelem or ruach to define your spirit form. You have a weak argument here. It really isn't an argument just you're own unsupported opinion.
This is more abject nonsense...ruach is spirit...You know that.

I'm not familiar enough with the nuances of the Hebrew word tzelem to argue beyond what a dictionary can tell me. What is the Greek word used when tzelem is the Hebrew?

They saw visions and riddles as God said they did.
They saw. That's all I need to know.

See above.
Ok..No help until then.

So, you believe your gods have separate bodies. That's not one.
I actually believe you cannot explain Genesis at all...

I did.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
And above...YHWH is absolutely singular...and there are three that are HE...all at the same time, ONE.
Rotfl... One person is never 3 persons. YHWH appeared singularly. You have 3 bodies which contradicts your previous statements of one body.

That's right! Absolutely ONE. Only One speaks to Abraham as the Three commune. And there is no contradiction.
Absolutely not. Three bodies aren't absolutely one. And your gods have parts. It's quite funny.

False claim, and deliberately artificial misunderstanding. I focus on the Hebrew because the WORD Elohim is NMP: noun masculine plural.
Etymologically yes. Contextually not always as shown by translations otherwise you have gods in your trinity.

Every time. I'm able to read it that way. You must prevent yourself from acknowledging what your language actually says, and in denial, artificially make the word "GODS" "god"...It's invention and denial, the root of your religion.
The usage of elohim is no different than other examples in language where a plural is used for emphasis. For example with respect to virgins and their signs, the plural betulei is used though we're talking about one virgin. With respect to Jacob, Joseph is referred to as the son of his old ages, zeqemim plural, because age also denotes wisdom in his case, Genesis 37:3.

The same applies with elohim with respect to YHWH.

One of us is forced to deny...the other reads and understands.
You need to keep reading.

Because the plural is recognized as ONE...the Three appear and create cooperatively on page one of the Torah.
The 3 are recognized as 3. If Neh 9:6 wanted to emphasize 3 that are one, lebadchem would have been used to denote more than one alone in a group.

No...but that's the best you're willing to do. I keep emphasizing the Hebrew language that you are forced to keep denying. NMP.
I'm not denying anything. Context determines the meaning. You're denying that your understanding forces you to accept gods. There's no way around it.

Hmm...Except...no angels...
Sure the angels were around. Nature and the creative forces were called into action and formed man at God's command.

You had the Will. You had the Word He spoke...and you have the Spirit brooding over the waters.
No mention of word. And God's will for creation was actively engaged, with the wind.

Not a single angel...yet
See above.

Three...Echad...God doesn't talk cooperatively to forces as if He needed anyone else to help Him...
Read Genesis 1:1-25. He spoke to creation.

You see how you are forced to invent to protect your misunderstanding and to justify accusing me?
I haven't forced anything.

My great, painstaking care leads me to read objectively, to allow scripture to instruct me. I do not seek to instruct the Word in His meaning.
The word isn't a person so you have a problem from the start.

The confusion is yours. We are in His image, and His likeness...and in us, three likewise interact and are one.
I'm not confused.

Who created everything physical and interacts as He wills in the way He foreordained, without seeking your approval or the approval of your invention.
The problem is you've defined your gods as a physical tzelem used to create man. You've got a quandary on who created them. ;)

Huh? I'm telling you these visions are spiritual reality. You were denying the reality of spiritual bodies...They are real...and describable.
You haven't defined spiritual form using tzelem and ruach. That's your homework.

Wrong prophecy...“Go and tell this people,
‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’b
10Make the hearts of this people calloused;
deafen their ears and close their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed.”
Wrong time frame.
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
Well, there isn't an expiation of sins under Christianity.

This is evident in that Christian theology teaches that your god takes on a nature not His own. And this new nature is separate from the divine nature. So, God Himself never takes on sins, bleeds, dies, etc.

The fact that people still die even with Jesus' blood, shows the debt remains.

I believe God became a man, not that God added on a human nature.

This is Kenotic theology and if you are interested I have several posts defending it on the Trinity forum.

The reason that we still die—and must live out our life in an obviously evil and imperfect world—is finishing the consequences of sin.

It does not logically mean that Christ accomplished nothing, as we must pass through the death we all owe to God.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
Because the Tenach will always present God Elohim as Will and Word and Spirit, ONE. Never more...and honest and consistent with the grammar, as I continue to show you.
That's false. Exodus 34:6-7 talks about God's attributes/actions, and the Spirits of God, Isaiah 11:2-3.

I don't. I never said He wasn't alone...The Father Willed, the Son was Spoken, and the Spirit brought life. Only One, before the earth ever was, YHWH Elohenu created.
The Father/God is spirit, will, without the need for others. You said so in argument of angels. ;)

That's nonsensical. The Word is not "created". The Word creates, and is Spoken according to the Will and the Spirit.
Words are spoken, thus created.

Without the Word there is NO creation. There is nothing made that was made without HIM.
Without the Father there are no spoken words, no creation. Jesus didn't create himself.

You focus on numbers. I just read.
You focus on 3. There are spirits in Isaiah 11:2-3, and attributes/actions as well Exodus 34:6-7.

If you want numbers, you have to go back to the beginning: 1In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

That's the Father...
One.

2Now the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep. And the Spirit of God was brooding over the surface of the waters.
The Father's will. Still one.

That's the Spirit.

3And God said, “Let there be light,” And that's the word.

Clear and simple.
Yes. The Father's words. Still one.

The soul is in the blood for all life.
No, blood is called soul and the whole human body is called a soul. And the soul dies.

I don't keep running away from nonsense. Your question is nonsense...How does the Word have the POWER to move everything Physical, and to create from tohu wa bohu. That's the question you need to deal with. How is all matter formed by the WORD, Who is God by Whom all things were created and without WHOM was not anything made that was made.
That's your problem. How does the word have a physical tzelem?

The Word is that which enacts, interacts and creates everything material according to the Will of Elohenu.
The Father did.

This is more abject nonsense...ruach is spirit...You know that.
So use it to define spirit form.

I'm not familiar enough with the nuances of the Hebrew word tzelem to argue beyond what a dictionary can tell me. What is the Greek word used when tzelem is the Hebrew?
Greek isn't the issue. Define spirit form using tzelem and ruach.
 
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Jewjitzu

Well-known member
I believe God became a man, not that God added on a human nature.
Even worse. God stopped being God, bled, died.

This is Kenotic theology and if you are interested I have several posts defending it on the Trinity forum.
Not interested.

The reason that we still die—and must live out our life in an obviously evil and imperfect world—is finishing the consequences of sin.
Then Jesus death had zero effect and my own death serves the same purpose for myself.

It does not logically mean that Christ accomplished nothing, as we must pass through the death we all owe to God.
Nothing.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
The Egyptian pantheon notwithstanding, this is not what Elohim was saying. I'm sure you know that. Moses was the representative of Elohim YHWH Himself, and Aaron was his messenger/word. Elohenu has no respect for the false gods, and makes that clear...calls them gods who are no gods.
Moses was called elohim before Pharaoh. That says it all.

One represented the One El Elyon Elohenu. One brought judgment on the false gods. Moses was not seen by the Israelites as Elohim...ever.
He represented Elo-him just like judges do, Exodus 21:6,22:8-9. We also know angels are called God, Psalm 8:5.

This is what you came up with? And they made a calf? To replace Moses?
The emphasis was their concern of what happened to Moses. They associated him with God in human form.

How does that make sense? Moses did not go before them. The fire by night and the smoke by day went before them.
That hadn't occurred yet.

They did not ask Aaron to make a "Moses" to go before them..."Moses is taking a long time. We don't know how much longer he'll be there...Make us Elohim." Not, "Make us Moses." The smoke and the cloud were on the top of the mountain. That was the problem.
Moses was seen as God.

Then the people worshiped Moses...Not God. And Moses in the shape of cattle.
Either one is idolatry - worship of a man or image.

And you agree with my point despite your strange contention: It is always mistranslated "gods". They wanted Aaron to make a statue of YHWH Elohim.
I don't see it as a mistranslation. You need to understand the background.

Of course it was wrong...and the translation is error on every count. They wanted YHWH on their terms, and according to their invention, just as you do today. It's never been right.
The issue is worship of a created form, just like worshipping Jesus. The thought that God can take form is idolatrous.

YHWH Elohenu (NMP)...paradox.
Not really. Singular YHWH is our God.

You're inventing. You have to retreat to your invention to protect your own limitations...

I read, for example, Genesis 18:16When the men got up to leave, they looked out over Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them off. I see "men". What do you see? There were three of them...They sat and ate with Abraham. Sarai made them a meal. We're talking hours of elapsed time.
Three men that you say are gods.

And then this:
17And the LORD said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and through him all the nations of the earth will be blessed. 19For I have chosen him, so that he will command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just, in order that the LORD may bring upon Abraham what He has promised.”
One of the men. Being that they are talking for God, there's no issue.

Who is talking, according to the scripture? Who do you say is talking? Is He talking? Did He just eat lunch?
The men are talking giving over a prophetic message.

20Then the LORD said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great. Because their sin is so grievous, 21I will go down to see if their actions fully justify the outcry that has reached Me. If not, I will find out.”Who is talking? What form has He taken? How is He talking? Why three? Why are they a singular YHWH doing the talking?
God sent three men to represent Him. Judgement is rendered based on the word of 2 or 3 witnesses.

Why does your unity god have 3 bodies?

22And the two men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD.Who left?
We all stand before God when we pray, and we don't think He's physically there.

As stated previously, the 3 men represented God in their individual mission.

Who does the scripture say remained? Who do you say remained?
Could have been one man, or God speaking from Heaven.

23Abraham stepped forward and said, “Will You really sweep away the righteous with the wicked? To whom is Abram talking? Did I ever call Him three Gods? Ever?
Three bodies are three separate gods. That's not a unity.

I understand what I'm reading, and I know YHWH Elohenu appeared to Abram...and I know how the appearance is described.
The appearance is described in the form of a prophetic message given over.

At no point do I see three "gods". I see YHWH Elohenu, echad. Simple as that. You're stuck with invention because you cannot accept that Elohim is NMP
3 bodies are 3 separate gods.

Does your translation say "Make us gods?" or "Make God for us?"
It says gods.

See above. It's not three Gods...It's just His appearance...as three. He is One. The fact that HE appears as three is just mystery...not limitation. You cannot deny the three...and you cannot deny bodily form...and I have yet to read a decent explanation...though I understand body has a realm soul has a realm and spirit has a realm. Sometimes realms meet...
You've said your god has one body. You contradict yourself and admit to believing/accepting 3 gods.

You've also said your gods incarnated once, and only one person as well.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
Rotfl... One person is never 3 persons. YHWH appeared singularly. You have 3 bodies which contradicts your previous statements of one body.
Your own chosen misunderstanding, because you cannot understand your own being. In His image you are three...each playing a cosmic, interactive role. Your spirit is not your soul...it is from God and returns to God. Your body is not your soul...It is dust and will return to dust. Your soul makes the choices whom you will serve and your body will obey the decision. When your soul is prompted by the Spirit of God, then you are set apart to do His will, and the eyes of the Lord search the earth to and fro to find one such.

Absolutely not. Three bodies aren't absolutely one. And your gods have parts. It's quite funny.
Only One speaks. You have never understood the passage, nor read it as it is written.
Etymologically yes. Contextually not always as shown by translations otherwise you have gods in your trinity.
We have Elohenu in our Trinity. Translations clearly err according to the preconceptions of the translator...The KJV was one of the precious few that would allow the original text to speak, even to following Greek syntax at times to allow the reader to understand and explore.
The usage of elohim is no different than other examples in language where a plural is used for emphasis. For example with respect to virgins and their signs, the plural betulei is used though we're talking about one virgin. With respect to Jacob, Joseph is referred to as the son of his old ages, zeqemim plural, because age also denotes wisdom in his case, Genesis 37:3.

The same applies with elohim with respect to YHWH.
Maybe...or the plural is justified for the sake of the paradox, the mystery of the Godhead Who must needs be beyond comprehension, and this discussion. We know that, but for the case of the Godhead, the plural always applies when there are more than one. Happily, there is no New Millennial aberrant club that seeks to identify the group as "he".
You need to keep reading.
That's a great idea for us...

The 3 are recognized as 3. If Neh 9:6 wanted to emphasize 3 that are one, lebadchem would have been used to denote more than one alone in a group.
Might have been/could have been used. Not necessarily. It's tacit recognition. The three of you, body and soul and spirit, approved this sentence, and yet I would never say "I'm glad you three wrote this." You undertook to respond, the spirit researched and brought together insights, and your fingers typed it. BTW..."more than one alone in a group..." makes no sense at all. No one is alone in a group...


I'm not denying anything. Context determines the meaning. You're denying that your understanding forces you to accept gods. There's no way around it.
You're denying that you misunderstand my every post, and return to a false accusation. There is only One God Elohenu.

Sure the angels were around. Nature and the creative forces were called into action and formed man at God's command.
Invention. You have zero scripture...

Mine say you are actually inaccurate, and mine actually quote Elohenu directly:

4Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? He. Singular.
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5Who fixed its measurements? Surely you know!
I know who. Do you?
Or who stretched a measuring line across it?I know. Do you?
6On what were its foundations set,
or who laid its cornerstone,
Do you know?
7while the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Who are these? Where did they come from? All I know is, this is an audience, not a group of collaborating participants. They do not supply the answer to ANY of the above questions.

No mention of word. And God's will for creation was actively engaged, with the wind.
Umm...God spoke...The Word is what got spoken, living and active, and sharper than a two edged sword...and stop being disingenuous. The "wind" is the ruach/spirit. Don't be blind, but seeing.

See above.
Please do.

Read Genesis 1:1-25. He spoke to creation.
Read it again: HE spoke. to tohu wa bohu, formlessness and void, sans image and sans likeness...Creation was not until He spoke the Word.

I haven't forced anything.
Please read it again...I didn't suggest you "forced" anything. You are obligated by your unwillingness to read to invent stuff from whole cloth.

The word isn't a person so you have a problem from the start.
The Word is very clearly a person. God does not submit to your limits, and the problem is not mine.

I'm not confused.
Your claim is one thing. Your words suggest otherwise and belie the claim.
The problem is you've defined your gods as a physical tzelem used to create man. You've got a quandary on who created them. ;)
Nope...You have insisted on interpreting my words this way. I have never "defined" elohenu as "physical" anything. I have pointed out what the Tenach has written...and my understanding does not forcibly begin, as yours does, with denial. I have shown you Who created all things...you are stuck with your false accusations. That's OK...I'm here for that.
You haven't defined spiritual form using tzelem and ruach. That's your homework.
Unlike the prophets, I've never been in the spirit to be qualified to define...but I have Daniel's and the prophets' descriptions. As I said, that remains the best I can do. I do not invent...

Wrong time frame.
Your blindness says otherwise.

Here's what I do know: "13Behold, My Servant will prosper;
He will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.
14Just as many were appalled at Him—
His appearance was disfigured beyond that of any man,
and His form was marred beyond human likeness—
15so He will sprinkle many nations.
Kings will shut their mouths because of Him.
For they will see what they have not been told,
and they will understand what they have not heard.

Your knee will bow and your tongue will eventually confess. As is was foreseen, foreknown and foretold.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
That's false. Exodus 34:6-7 talks about God's attributes/actions, and the Spirits of God, Isaiah 11:2-3.
I wasn't talking of His attributes, but of His essential Being: One and inseparable, each having the same attributes as the other...and the attributes of the "Spirits of God..." that rest on Messiah in Isaiah only confirm the claim. You have not refuted what I said, but confirmed that He is One.

The Father/God is spirit, will, without the need for others. You said so in argument of angels. ;)
Well...you're up to two of the three. At least you see that. He is not being but for His Will and His Word in the Spirit. Is Word is the manifestation of Will and Spirit. His Word is Spirit and Life.

Words are spoken, thus created.
This is your error and your perpetual misunderstanding. Words are spoken, thereby creating. There is no other way to create but by the Word. Words unspoken have no impact and are impotent. Here the voice of wisdom in Proverbs...especially the early chapters...

Proverbs 8 almost sounds like God speaking to Job:
22The LORD created me as His first course,
before His works of old.
23From everlasting I was established,
from the beginning, before the earth began.
24When there were no watery depths, I was brought forth,
when no springs were overflowing with water.
25Before the mountains were settled,
before the hills, I was brought forth,
26before He made the land or fields,
or any of the dust of the earth.
27I was there when He established the heavens,
when He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep,
28when He established the clouds above,
when the fountains of the deep gushed forth,
29when He set a boundary for the sea,
so that the waters would not surpass His command,
when He marked out the foundations of the earth.
30Then I was a skilled craftsman at His side,
and His delightd day by day,
rejoicing always in His presence.
31I was rejoicing in His whole world,
delighting together in the sons of men.

Are you going to make wisdom a creation? That God exists without wisdom?
Without the Father there are no spoken words, no creation. Jesus didn't create himself.
This is truth...And without the Word there is no creation...Nothing was made without the Word, living and active to create all things.

You focus on 3. There are spirits in Isaiah 11:2-3, and attributes/actions as well Exodus 34:6-7.
See above. God has attributes. Attributes are not God...but they fit into any doxology. And here's the remarkable thing: Each of the attributes...is attributable to the Will and the Spirit and the Word of the Living Elohim.

One.


The Father's will. Still one.


Yes. The Father's words. Still one.
Excellent. Is this a breakthrough? Of course! One! Elohenu echad.

Except...the Spirit is not the Father's will...The Spirit is the breather of life.

No, blood is called soul and the whole human body is called a soul. And the soul dies.
You're not being accurate. Blood is not called "soul"...It is written the "soul/nephesh of the animal is in his blood." The soul is identified with the blood as the breath is identified with the Spirit...and the body...well...

That's your problem. How does the word have a physical tzelem?
You're asking a good question. Try it like this: How does the Word create EVERYTHING physical?
The Father did.
Yep...by the Word...and without the Word, nothing at all was made.

So use it to define spirit form.
We only have description. Never definition. You make things up. I don't.

Greek isn't the issue. Define spirit form using tzelem and ruach.
See above.,
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
I wasn't talking of His attributes, but of His essential Being: One and inseparable, each having the same attributes as the other...and the attributes of the "Spirits of God..." that rest on Messiah in Isaiah only confirm the claim. You have not refuted what I said, but confirmed that He is One.
You can't neglect anything related to God. You have when you speak only of will, spirit, body. So, you show short-sightedness by speaking of "3" like it defines God.

Well...you're up to two of the three. At least you see that. He is not being but for His Will and His Word in the Spirit. Is Word is the manifestation of Will and Spirit. His Word is Spirit and Life.
One covers all, not separated. The Father covers it all.

This is your error and your perpetual misunderstanding. Words are spoken, thereby creating. There is no other way to create but by the Word. Words unspoken have no impact and are impotent. Here the voice of wisdom in Proverbs...especially the early chapters...
Words unspoken serve no purpose. Words are created by our thoughts.

Proverbs 8 almost sounds like God speaking to Job:
22The LORD created me as His first course,
before His works of old.
23From everlasting I was established,
from the beginning, before the earth began.
24When there were no watery depths, I was brought forth,
when no springs were overflowing with water.
25Before the mountains were settled,
before the hills, I was brought forth,
26before He made the land or fields,
or any of the dust of the earth.
27I was there when He established the heavens,
when He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep,
28when He established the clouds above,
when the fountains of the deep gushed forth,
29when He set a boundary for the sea,
so that the waters would not surpass His command,
when He marked out the foundations of the earth.
30Then I was a skilled craftsman at His side,
and His delightd day by day,
rejoicing always in His presence.
31I was rejoicing in His whole world,
delighting together in the sons of men.
Wisdom was evident in the creation. The plan for creation.

Are you going to make wisdom a creation? That God exists without wisdom?
Read v22. Creation was made with wisdom.

This is truth...And without the Word there is no creation...Nothing was made without the Word, living and active to create all things.
The Father spoke and it was.

See above. God has attributes. Attributes are not God...but they fit into any doxology. And here's the remarkable thing: Each of the attributes...is attributable to the Will and the Spirit and the Word of the Living Elohim.
Here's the beautiful thing. Spoken words express the will, spirit, which is the Father. No need for help from another. You said so yourself.

Excellent. Is this a breakthrough? Of course! One! Elohenu echad.

Except...the Spirit is not the Father's will...The Spirit is the breather of life.
Spirit is the will of the Father. He is will. And His will gives life, the living God.

You're not being accurate. Blood is not called "soul"...It is written the "soul/nephesh of the animal is in his blood."
Deut 12:23 shows the blood is nefesh which we can't eat with the meat.

The soul is identified with the blood as the breath is identified with the Spirit...and the body...well...
I corrected you above.

You're asking a good question. Try it like this: How does the Word create EVERYTHING physical?
You're avoiding answering the question. You've said your gods created with body, soul, and spirit. You said the word was body. Show me your proof in the Hebrew with dabar, etc.

Yep...by the Word...and without the Word, nothing at all was made.
Only one person the Father spoke.

We only have description. Never definition. You make things up. I don't.
Then you failed and made up your opinion with zero support. You threw out spirit form not knowing what it is.

See above.,
You totally lost it here.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
I wasn't talking of His attributes, but of His essential Being: One and inseparable, each having the same attributes as the other...
If he is one and inseparable, it makes no sense to then say each. You can only say each if there is more than one.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
Your own chosen misunderstanding, because you cannot understand your own being. In His image you are three...each playing a cosmic, interactive role. Your spirit is not your soul...it is from God and returns to God. Your body is not your soul...It is dust and will return to dust. Your soul makes the choices whom you will serve and your body will obey the decision. When your soul is prompted by the Spirit of God, then you are set apart to do His will, and the eyes of the Lord search the earth to and fro to find one such.
So, since our body is dust how does that match with your gods body? Since our soul dies, how does that match your gods soul? And since our spirit isn't ours, how does that match your gods spirit?

Since woman was created from man, who in your godhead was created from the other?

Where's your gods physical tzelem?

Only One speaks. You have never understood the passage, nor read it as it is written.
So you have two death mutes as partners? You're scrambling around and not answering. You said your gods had one body and are a unity, but they end up with 3 bodies and disunited in Genesis 18.

We have Elohenu in our Trinity. Translations clearly err according to the preconceptions of the translator...The KJV was one of the precious few that would allow the original text to speak, even to following Greek syntax at times to allow the reader to understand and explore.
Again, context determines the meaning of words and Elo-him is definitely singular in Genesis 1:26-27. Have you heard of Dr. Michael Heiser from Logos bible software? Check out what he has to say about the morphology of elohim and how context determines the meaning.

...
As noted above, elohim is morphologically plural. Morphology refers to the "shape" or construction of a word - its form. As far as meaning, though, elohim can be either singular or plural depending on context. As anyone who has taken a language can testify, meaning is determined by context, not by a list of glosses in a dictionary (which are only OPTIONS – the translator must look to context for accuracy).
More specifically, the meaning of any occurrence of elohim must be discerned in three ways:

A. Grammatical indications elsewhere in the text that help to determine if a singular or plural meaning is meant.
B. Grammatical rules in Hebrew that are true in the language as a whole.
C. Historical / Logical context.

To illustrate, consider words in English such as:
"deer", "sheep", "fish" - the point is you need other words to help you tell if one or more than one of these animals is meant. Sometimes these other words are verbs that help you tell. Compare the two examples::

1) "The sheep is lost" - the word "is" is a singular verb (It goes with a singular subject; one wouldn't say, for example, "I are lost" - you would use a verb that goes with the singular subject ("I am lost").

2) "The sheep are lost" - the word "are" is a plural verb (again, another word next to our noun "sheep" tells us in this case that plural sheep are meant.

All of this is just basic grammar - and every language has grammar. Biblical Hebrew has its own ways of telling us if elohim means ONE person or many gods. It matches the noun elohim to singular or plural verbs, or with singular or plural pronouns (to use "sheep" again as an example:
"Those sheep are white"). The word "those" is what's called a demonstrative pronoun - it automatically tells us that sheep in this sentence is meant to be understood as a plural.

Check out his paper at sitchin is wrong site.

Maybe...or the plural is justified for the sake of the paradox, the mystery of the Godhead Who must needs be beyond comprehension, and this discussion. We know that, but for the case of the Godhead, the plural always applies when there are more than one. Happily, there is no New Millennial aberrant club that seeks to identify the group as "he".
That's a great idea for us...
It doesn't look like you understand context very well. You're admitting to 3 gods and it's quite hilarious.

Might have been/could have been used. Not necessarily. It's tacit recognition. The three of you, body and soul and spirit, approved this sentence, and yet I would never say "I'm glad you three wrote this."
There's only one me.

You undertook to respond, the spirit researched and brought together insights, and your fingers typed it. BTW..."more than one alone in a group..." makes no sense at all. No one is alone in a group...
The point is "bad" in Hebrew means alone. Depending on the ending, the meaning is exclusively alone as one, or individuals alone as part of a group. No verse where scripture says God is alone shows the plural form for "bad".

You're denying that you misunderstand my every post, and return to a false accusation. There is only One God Elohenu.
That would be 3 gods since you're grasping at a plural meaning for elohim. It's not 3 oranges.

Invention. You have zero scripture...
Psalm 104:3 says angels are fire and wind. Where do you see this in the creation accounts?

Mine say you are actually inaccurate, and mine actually quote Elohenu directly:
We see above that angels are forces of nature, the elements, etc. Dirt would be an angel, as would be water, wind, etc., all commanded by God.

4Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? He. Singular.
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5Who fixed its measurements? Surely you know!
I know who. Do you?
Or who stretched a measuring line across it?I know. Do you?
6On what were its foundations set,
or who laid its cornerstone,
Do you know?
7while the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Who are these? Where did they come from? All I know is, this is an audience, not a group of collaborating participants. They do not supply the answer to ANY of the above questions.
Psalm 69:34
Let heaven and earth praise him, the seas and all that move in them... creation has been singing for a while. Creation speaks of His glory.

Umm...God spoke...The Word is what got spoken, living and active, and sharper than a two edged sword...and stop being disingenuous. The "wind" is the ruach/spirit. Don't be blind, but seeing.
The Father spoke the words, not the word spoke the words.

Read it again: HE spoke. to tohu wa bohu, formlessness and void, sans image and sans likeness...Creation was not until He spoke the Word.
Read v2. The earth was formless and void... your contradicted.

Please read it again...I didn't suggest you "forced" anything. You are obligated by your unwillingness to read to invent stuff from whole cloth.
Rotfl... this is funny considering you've made up spirit form, word body, etc.

The Word is very clearly a person. God does not submit to your limits, and the problem is not mine.
Find in Tanakh where dabar, word, is used for a person. You're the one with the problem.

Your claim is one thing. Your words suggest otherwise and belie the claim.
Nope...You have insisted on interpreting my words this way. I have never "defined" elohenu as "physical" anything. I have pointed out what the Tenach has written...and my understanding does not forcibly begin, as yours does, with denial. I have shown you Who created all things...you are stuck with your false accusations. That's OK...I'm here for that.
You're quite dishonest tbeachhead and flip flop all over the place. You believe in plural gods with the understanding of plural elohim; your gods have 3 bodies in Genesis 18, not one as you've said, you can't define spirit form but yet I'm supposed to believe in it; you've said your gods have a real tzelem but say it's not physical but man's tzelem is physical and like your gods, etc. Your just dishonest all over.

Unlike the prophets, I've never been in the spirit to be qualified to define...but I have Daniel's and the prophets' descriptions. As I said, that remains the best I can do. I do not invent...
You've made up everything and are unequiped to defend your point here. All visions and riddles.

Here's what I do know: "13Behold, My Servant will prosper;
He will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.
14Just as many were appalled at Him—
His appearance was disfigured beyond that of any man,
and His form was marred beyond human likeness—
15so He will sprinkle many nations.
Kings will shut their mouths because of Him.
For they will see what they have not been told,
and they will understand what they have not heard.
Yep. Israel is called out as the servant in Isaiah.

Your knee will bow and your tongue will eventually confess. As is was foreseen, foreknown and foretold.
Jesus has already done all of this towards the Father. He fulfilled this prophecy already and will again ;)
 
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tbeachhead

Well-known member
If he is one and inseparable, it makes no sense to then say each. You can only say each if there is more than one.
Because you do not understand your own fundamental nature, you have to say this. You, inasmuch as you are in His image and likeness, are likewise one and inseparable until the day you die...when your spirit, as it is written, returns to the Lord, you flesh returns to the dust, and your soul rests in Sheol.

When you separate, you are dead...He is inseparable. And His death therefore rocked the entire universe on a cosmic scale. Light, of whom it is written, "In Your light we see light..." even ceased when Jesus commended His Spirit to the Father's Hand.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
Because you do not understand your own fundamental nature, you have to say this. , inasmuch as you are in His image and likeness, are likewise one and inseparable until the day you die...when your spirit, as it is written, returns to the Lord, you flesh returns to the dust, and your soul rests in Sheol.

When you separate, you are dead...He is inseparable. And His death therefore rocked the entire universe on a cosmic scale. Light, of whom it is written, "In Your light we see light..." even ceased when Jesus commended His Spirit to the Father's Hand.
Rotfl... so which one of your gods has an image of dirt? Has a soul that dies?

If your gods image is inseparable, why is it that you describe them as 3 separate bodies in Genesis 18, and elsewhere? Looks like the idea of your gods is dead.
 
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tbeachhead

Well-known member
Rotfl... so which one of your gods has an image of dirt? Has a soul that dies?
Wahahahaha....Reading is a great thing, isn't it? It's all about Elohenu!

Psalm 16:10 …9Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices; my body also will dwell securely. 10For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol, nor will You let Your Holy One see decay. 11You have made known to me the path of life; You will fill me with joy in Your presence, with eternal pleasures at Your right hand.…

His body was clothed again in immortality before it saw decay. And the soul was not abandoned in Sheol...but there were three days where the transaction was consummated, securing resurrection not only for your Messiah, but unto all who believe on His Name, at which your knee shall bow, and your tongue confess His Lordship.

If your gods image is inseparable, why is it that you describe them as 3 separate bodies in Genesis 18, and elsewhere? Looks like the idea of your gods is dead.
But for the Resurrection your deception would be entirely comprehensible...

What I love about your limited invention: You have to ignore the Tenach over and over again...

Look at what Jeremiah tells believers that you are forced to ignore and deny vehemently:

4The Word of the LORD came to me, saying:

Look Who came to Jeremiah! But...oops :rolleyes: for you He's not a person! You're going to say, "He doesn't have a body."

5“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
and before you were born I set you apart
and appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”
6“Ah, Lord GOD,” I said, “I surely do not know how to speak, for I am only a child!”
7But the LORD told me:
“Do not say,
‘I am only a child.’
For to everyone I send you,
you must go,
and all that I command you,
you must speak.
8Do not be afraid of them,
for I am with you to deliver you,”
declares the LORD.
9Then the LORD reached out His hand, touched my mouth, and said to me:
“Behold, I have put My words
in your mouth.


Look at Who's talking! The Word of the Lord is YHWH...with a hand to put on Jeremiah's mouth! And Jeremiah calls Him YHWH Elohim

Your limitations are everywhere in the Tenakh.
 
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tbeachhead

Well-known member
You can't neglect anything related to God. You have when you speak only of will, spirit, body. So, you show short-sightedness by speaking of "3" like it defines God.
It doesn't define Elohim...It confirms the consistent nature of God's creation of Life. And Three is perfection for a reason, as you well know.

When you deny or confute Will and Spirit and Body...you confuse Elohim with the physical, and deny spiritual reality.

One covers all, not separated. The Father covers it all.
...with the Word of the Lord...and the Spirit...Covers it all, and never One without the other...See Jeremiah 1 above...The Tenakh covers it all quite clearly.

Words unspoken serve no purpose. Words are created by our thoughts.
You've never written a speech...Words unspoken generate thoughts...and precede form.

Wisdom was evident in the creation. The plan for creation.
That's what I just said...words unspoken...preceding substance.


Read v22. Creation was made with wisdom.
Yep...


The Father spoke and it was.
Agreed. The Father Spoke the Word of the Lord...and Life was when the Spirit entered in.

Here's the beautiful thing. Spoken words express the will, spirit, which is the Father. No need for help from another. You said so yourself.
Hehehehe...So the Word and the Father are One...as Jesus your Messiah explained so patiently...It's not an issue of "help". Only of BE...

Spirit is the will of the Father. He is will. And His will gives life, the living God.
Naaah. Spirit is the breath of the Father. It's life. The Word is the expression.
Deut 12:23 shows the blood is nefesh which we can't eat with the meat.
Correct. The soul of the animal is in the blood. And blood is given on the altar for the life of the sinner.

I corrected you above.
No you didn't. But you almost got it right...;) I corrected you.

You're avoiding answering the question. You've said your gods created with body, soul, and spirit. You said the word was body. Show me your proof in the Hebrew with dabar, etc.
No problem. Thanks for asking.

Look at Jeremiah 1:4 and 1:11 again. The Word of the Lord comes to Jeremiah...and He has a hand in verse 9:9Then the LORD reached out His hand, touched my mouth, and said to me: “Behold, I have put My words
in your mouth.

Only one person the Father spoke.
He spoke the Word...Your Messiah, by Whom all things were made and without which was not anything made.

Then you failed and made up your opinion with zero support. You threw out spirit form not knowing what it is.
It's not my fault you reject the description so often repeated in the Tenakh. I didn't teach you to reject what is so clearly written. I didn't fail. Your traditions have nullified the Word...making it impossible for you to even recognize your Messiah. It's very easy to understand.

You totally lost it here.
Keep seeing above until you get it...Lessons are recurring.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
So, since our body is dust how does that match with your gods body?
It doesn't match yet. That's very clear. Redemption is when mortality is clothed in immortality and we are transformed in the twinkling of an eye...You get a visual when you see Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration, where for a moment, immortality peeped out when He talked with Moses and Elijah.

Since our soul dies, how does that match your gods soul? And since our spirit isn't ours, how does that match your gods spirit?
The soul never dies. Ask Samuel...it rests in Sheol. I thought you understood that.

Since woman was created from man, who in your godhead was created from the other?
Since He created him in the image of God and male and female created He them...where is the female in your godhead?

Where's your gods physical tzelem?
You keep saying "physical". You can keep your confusion if you like...When you look on the One you pierce, you'll understand better, though it might be too late to profit from your understanding.


So you have two deaf mutes as partners? You're scrambling around and not answering. You said your gods had one body and are a unity, but they end up with 3 bodies and disunited in Genesis 18.
I didn't write it...I just observe to whom Abram is speaking, and I'm not seeking a workaround. Your invention cannot ever be seen, never met with anyone face to face despite the claims of scripture...and has been limited by you from the apparent "misrepresentations" you cannot admit.0

Again, context determines the meaning of words and Elo-him is definitely singular in Genesis 1:26-27. Have you heard of Dr. Michael Heiser from Logos bible software? Check out what he has to say about the morphology of elohim and how context determines the meaning.
I like Michael Heiser. I'm glad you listen to him. His insights are drawn from a reputable knowledge of all the ancient languages.

I've always said, though you might have forgotten, that Elohim (nmp) echad. We don't disagree...but to say instead "El echad" would be trite and meaningless for reasons you cannot understand.

...
As noted above, elohim is morphologically plural. Morphology refers to the "shape" or construction of a word - its form. As far as meaning, though, elohim can be either singular or plural depending on context. As anyone who has taken a language can testify, meaning is determined by context, not by a list of glosses in a dictionary (which are only OPTIONS – the translator must look to context for accuracy).
More specifically, the meaning of any occurrence of elohim must be discerned in three ways:

A. Grammatical indications elsewhere in the text that help to determine if a singular or plural meaning is meant.
B. Grammatical rules in Hebrew that are true in the language as a whole.
C. Historical / Logical context.
Simply put: El is a title, it specifies degree of authority. Elohim conveys the idea of realm...El the Will, El the Word and El the Spirit...echad. It will still only refer to one. And you're right: You to know if you're speaking of God or of the false deities to whom the nations bowed.

To illustrate, consider words in English such as:
"deer", "sheep", "fish" - the point is you need other words to help you tell if one or more than one of these animals is meant. Sometimes these other words are verbs that help you tell. Compare the two examples::

1) "The sheep is lost" - the word "is" is a singular verb (It goes with a singular subject; one wouldn't say, for example, "I are lost" - you would use a verb that goes with the singular subject ("I am lost").

2) "The sheep are lost" - the word "are" is a plural verb (again, another word next to our noun "sheep" tells us in this case that plural sheep are meant.

All of this is just basic grammar - and every language has grammar. Biblical Hebrew has its own ways of telling us if elohim means ONE person or many gods. It matches the noun elohim to singular or plural verbs, or with singular or plural pronouns (to use "sheep" again as an example:
"Those sheep are white"). The word "those" is what's called a demonstrative pronoun - it automatically tells us that sheep in this sentence is meant to be understood as a plural.

Check out his paper at sitchin is wrong site.
We've been through this...It's not an apt comparison.


It doesn't look like you understand context very well. You're admitting to 3 gods and it's quite hilarious.
Nope...Elohim. You cannot see it.

There's only one me.
Yep...Only one...in spirit and soul and body, each independent of the other, and one. You are not three.


The point is "bad" in Hebrew means alone. Depending on the ending, the meaning is exclusively alone as one, or individuals alone as part of a group. No verse where scripture says God is alone shows the plural form for "bad".
OK...


That would be 3 gods since you're grasping at a plural meaning for elohim. It's not 3 oranges.
Nope. Just Elohenu...

Psalm 104:3 says angels are fire and wind. Where do you see this in the creation accounts?
I don't see angels, cherubim or seraphim in the creation accounts...until the cherubim are stationed to guard the entry back into the garden.


We see above that angels are forces of nature, the elements, etc. Dirt would be an angel, as would be water, wind, etc., all commanded by God.
No...You invented that. I've never seen it. Even the destroying angel over Jerusalem was seen by David...


Psalm 69:34
Let heaven and earth praise him, the seas and all that move in them... creation has been singing for a while. Creation speaks of His glory.
Yep...That helps establish His Word. The heavens declare His righteousness.

The Father spoke the words, not the word spoke the words.
"The Word of the Lord came to Jeremiah and said..."

You're inventing. I'm not.

Read v2. The earth was formless and void... you're contradicted.
The earth was formless and void...and then He spoke...I'm not. You are.


Rotfl... this is funny considering you've made up spirit form, word body, etc.
Pure observation.


Find in Tanakh where dabar, word, is used for a person. You're the one with the problem.
I did...Jer 1. Waiting for your response.

You're quite dishonest tbeachhead and flip flop all over the place. You believe in plural gods with the understanding of plural elohim; your gods have 3 bodies in Genesis 18, not one as you've said, you can't define spirit form but yet I'm supposed to believe in it; you've said your gods have a real tzelem but say it's not physical but man's tzelem is physical and like your gods, etc. Your just dishonest all over.
One of us is having a problem with dishonesty because you ascribe your deliberate misunderstanding to something you claim I said. I do not believe in plural gods, I believe in Elohenu, as it is written, and as HE describes. You deny the plural for the convenience of your invention.

Man's form that you see is temporary, and mortal...and that's all you allow yourself to see...Samuel was recognizably Samuel in sheol...and he was not the Samuel that anointed David. His physical body was in the grave. Deal with what we have revealed to us. What's hidden belongs to God.

You've made up everything and are unequiped to defend your point here. All visions and riddles.
You have nothing and make claims to knowledge that you've forbidden yourself. I told you I have Daniel and the prophets. I will not invent.


Yep. Israel is called out as the servant in Isaiah.
Then the prophecy is false...but your Messiah fulfilled the prophecy to the letter, proving it's not false, and it's not Israel...who is not even named, but thrown in in defiance of the context for the sake of your invention.

This actually suggests that you're ill-equipped to defend your own claims.
Jesus has already done all of this towards the Father. He fulfilled this prophecy already and will again ;)
Good for you! The Word to the Will...and He will return. Then your eye will see, your knee will bow and your own tongue will confess.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
Wahahahaha....Reading is a great thing, isn't it? It's all about Elohenu!
Your gods? Ok, you admit being a polytheist.

Psalm 16:10 …9Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices; my body also will dwell securely. 10For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol, nor will You let Your Holy One see decay. 11You have made known to me the path of life; You will fill me with joy in Your presence, with eternal pleasures at Your right hand.…
So your gods have bodies that bleed, die, defecate and decay.

His body was clothed again in immortality before it saw decay.
Actually, Jesus' bones are in Talpiot, but, playing along with you, decay starts soon after death.

And the soul was not abandoned in Sheol...but there were three days where the transaction was consummated, securing resurrection not only for your Messiah, but unto all who believe on His Name, at which your knee shall bow, and your tongue confess His Lordship.
Your gods still have knees, they'll be bowing soon enough.

But for the Resurrection your deception would be entirely comprehensible...
It never happened. No broken tombs either.

What I love about your limited invention: You have to ignore the Tenach over and over again...

Look at what Jeremiah tells believers that you are forced to ignore and deny vehemently:

4The Word of the LORD came to me, saying:
Lower case.

Look Who came to Jeremiah! But...oops :rolleyes: for you He's not a person! You're going to say, "He doesn't have a body."
It's funny how you have to capitalize and make into a pronoun what isn't. I thought you understood grammar?

5“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
and before you were born I set you apart
and appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”
6“Ah, Lord GOD,” I said, “I surely do not know how to speak, for I am only a child!”
7But the LORD told me:
“Do not say,
‘I am only a child.’
For to everyone I send you,
you must go,
and all that I command you,
you must speak.
8Do not be afraid of them,
for I am with you to deliver you,”
declares the LORD.
9Then the LORD reached out His hand, touched my mouth, and said to me:
“Behold, I have put My words
in your mouth.


Look at Who's talking! The Word of the Lord is YHWH...with a hand to put on Jeremiah's mouth! And Jeremiah calls Him YHWH Elohim
Just the Father talking.

Your limitations are everywhere in the Tenakh.
You make up a lot of false stories.
 
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Jewjitzu

Well-known member
It doesn't define Elohim...It confirms the consistent nature of God's creation of Life. And Three is perfection for a reason, as you well know.
The number 3 doesn't define perfection. You're constantly defining.

When you deny or confute Will and Spirit and Body...you confuse Elohim with the physical, and deny spiritual reality.
Sorry, you're confused with spirit form, physical tzelem, etc.

...with the Word of the Lord...and the Spirit...Covers it all, and never One without the other...See Jeremiah 1 above...The Tenakh covers it all quite clearly.
The Father covers it all without 3 bodies.

You've never written a speech...Words unspoken generate thoughts...and precede form.
Where's the body, tzelem?

Agreed. The Father Spoke the Word of the Lord...and Life was when the Spirit entered in.
The Father is all of this, with no additional persons.

Hehehehe...So the Word and the Father are One...as Jesus your Messiah explained so patiently...It's not an issue of "help". Only of BE...
It's an issue of one, not three, who initiated all.

Naaah. Spirit is the breath of the Father. It's life. The Word is the expression.
All just the Father. Word isn't a pronoun. You do know that?

Correct. The soul of the animal is in the blood. And blood is given on the altar for the life of the sinner.
No, blood is actually the soul. That's one of the definitions.

No you didn't. But you almost got it right...;) I corrected you.
Blood is defined as soul too.

No problem. Thanks for asking.

Look at Jeremiah 1:4 and 1:11 again. The Word of the Lord comes to Jeremiah...and He has a hand in verse 9:9Then the LORD reached out His hand, touched my mouth, and said to me: “Behold, I have put My words
in your mouth.
I'm sorry, this is laughable. Shiw me in Hebrew dabar means body.

He spoke the Word...Your Messiah, by Whom all things were made and without which was not anything made.
You're still failing.

It's not my fault you reject the description so often repeated in the Tenakh. I didn't teach you to reject what is so clearly written. I didn't fail. Your traditions have nullified the Word...making it impossible for you to even recognize your Messiah. It's very easy to understand.
It is your problem. You spouted out things which you made up definitions for. Again "word" isn't a pronoun.

Keep seeing above until you get it...Lessons are recurring.
Yep, I'm pointing out your problems.
 
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