Thief on the cross - forgiven how?

Open Heart

Well-known member
Can you love only a little?
The point is that no one can see the heart and quantify how much love it has. Therefore you can't say that when X and Y both claim to love and act loving, you can't say which of them has greater love. It's impossible.
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
The point is that no one can see the heart and quantify how much love it has. Therefore you can't say that when X and Y both claim to love and act loving, you can't say which of them has greater love. It's impossible.

You are avoiding answering the question like the plague.

How much do you love God on a scale of 1-100?
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
You are avoiding answering the question like the plague.

How much do you love God on a scale of 1-100?
You cannot quantify love. I've already said this. Love is the decision to put the other above your own interests. You either love or you don't.
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
You cannot quantify love.

Says who? You did not deny you can love a little, and that is a quantification.

I've already said this. Love is the decision to put the other above your own interests. You either love or you don't.

So there are no degrees of love, there is no such thing as imperfect love?

That's ridiculous.

You can admit you just don't know exactly how much you love God, I will accept that answer.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
He loved God like you never will.
And yet Jesus still didn't pay all the debts required by the law for forgiveness.

He certainly wasn't tempted in all the ways that men, women, etc., are. It's a joke that the NT even says this. Let him live in a detention camp like the Jews in the Holocaust camps did, and let's see how he does, hmmm?

And countless other scenarios...

Ezekiel 18:32
For I take no pleasure in anyone’s death, declares the Lord GOD. So repent and live!
 
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Jewjitzu

Well-known member
Says who? You did not deny you can love a little, and that is a quantification.



So there are no degrees of love, there is no such thing as imperfect love?

That's ridiculous.

You can admit you just don't know exactly how much you love God, I will accept that answer.
Hmmm... who would you say loves the other more? The child or the parent?
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
Says who? You did not deny you can love a little, and that is a quantification.



So there are no degrees of love, there is no such thing as imperfect love?

That's ridiculous.

You can admit you just don't know exactly how much you love God, I will accept that answer.
How do you think you can measure love? How do can you reliably say that one person loves more than another person.
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
I may not know exactly how much I love God—and in fact I am most likely deceived about how much I love God—but the fact is I can know I don't love God as much as I should.

You see, it's hard to raise an awareness of sin in a self-righteous man. If someone thinks sins are something God can forgive easily and they are just small little mistakes, they will never understand how holy God is and how sinful they really are—the vast and extreme gap between them and their Creator.

17 `Can a mortal be more righteous than God? Can a man be more pure than his Maker?
18 If He puts no trust in His servants, If He charges His angels with error,
19 How much more those who dwell in houses of clay, Whose foundation is in the dust, Who are crushed before a moth?
20 They are broken in pieces from morning till evening; They perish forever, with no one regarding.
21 Does not their own excellence go away? They die, even without wisdom.' (Job 4:17-21 NKJ)

Yet Job, put under the most extreme conditions, did two things: number one, he refused to give up his sense of self-righteousness that bought him a sense of entitlement with God:

29 Yield now, let there be no injustice! Yes, concede, my righteousness still stands!
30 Is there injustice on my tongue? Cannot my taste discern the unsavory? (Job 6:29-30 NKJ)

And secondly, he started sinning more than he ever did in his life by constantly accusing God of injustice and complaining about his circumstances!

So how do you show a person who never did any outwardly horrific sin that they are extremely sinful compared to God's perfect holiness and therefore deserve judgment? The only way you can do that is by increasing their understand of what perfection is, not lessening the requirements of the law.

27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old1,`You shall not commit adultery.'
28 "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (Matt. 5:27-28 NKJ)

43 "You have heard that it was said,`You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
44 "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you1, (Matt. 5:43-44 NKJ)


No one can do this! No one can live perfectly pure and loving like this! No one but Christ.

Forget about paying some monetary debt as fulfilling the law. Doing all the external things the law commands as mere actions cover up hundreds of bad attitudes underneath. What if I pay that debt without loving God, with a heart full of resentment and pride? That's not fulfilling the law, because the law still commands certain attitudes, and attitudes are invisible and only see by God as you both have pointed out.

Now there's a reason you both keep evading and distracting from answer the question. As soon as you come up with any number that is not 100% you realize you have fallen short, you have done something wrong, you have failed God. That puts you in a certain moral bind.

I have never loved God 100%, I want to get things out of God or feel good about myself, or use people and situations to meet my selfish needs.

And the thing is, when I realize this, I wish I really could and did love God completely and perfectly because surely he deserves that.

And that knowledge of failing the law puts me in a place where I know I need the grace of God, instead of just demands from him.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
I may not know exactly how much I love God—and in fact I am most likely deceived about how much I love God—but the fact is I can know I don't love God as much as I should.

You see, it's hard to raise an awareness of sin in a self-righteous man. If someone thinks sins are something God can forgive easily and they are just small little mistakes, they will never understand how holy God is and how sinful they really are—the vast and extreme gap between them and their Creator.

17 `Can a mortal be more righteous than God? Can a man be more pure than his Maker?
18 If He puts no trust in His servants, If He charges His angels with error,
19 How much more those who dwell in houses of clay, Whose foundation is in the dust, Who are crushed before a moth?
20 They are broken in pieces from morning till evening; They perish forever, with no one regarding.
21 Does not their own excellence go away? They die, even without wisdom.' (Job 4:17-21 NKJ)

Yet Job, put under the most extreme conditions, did two things: number one, he refused to give up his sense of self-righteousness that bought him a sense of entitlement with God:

29 Yield now, let there be no injustice! Yes, concede, my righteousness still stands!
30 Is there injustice on my tongue? Cannot my taste discern the unsavory? (Job 6:29-30 NKJ)

And secondly, he started sinning more than he ever did in his life by constantly accusing God of injustice and complaining about his circumstances!

So how do you show a person who never did any outwardly horrific sin that they are extremely sinful compared to God's perfect holiness and therefore deserve judgment? The only way you can do that is by increasing their understand of what perfection is, not lessening the requirements of the law.

27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old1,`You shall not commit adultery.'
28 "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (Matt. 5:27-28 NKJ)

43 "You have heard that it was said,`You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
44 "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you1, (Matt. 5:43-44 NKJ)

No one can do this! No one can live perfectly pure and loving like this! No one but Christ.

Forget about paying some monetary debt as fulfilling the law. Doing all the external things the law commands as mere actions cover up hundreds of bad attitudes underneath.
You need to admit Jesus didn't fulfill this obligation of the law.

What if I pay that debt without loving God, with a heart full of resentment and pride? That's not fulfilling the law, because the law still commands certain attitudes, and attitudes are invisible and only see by God as you both have pointed out.
Well, not paying the debt certainly shows no love for the person it's owed to nor God.

Now there's a reason you both keep evading and distracting from answer the question. As soon as you come up with any number that is not 100% you realize you have fallen short, you have done something wrong, you have failed God. That puts you in a certain moral bind.
No, it's called not playing into your games.

I have never loved God 100%, I want to get things out of God or feel good about myself, or use people and situations to meet my selfish needs.
Then, focus on yourself.

And the thing is, when I realize this, I wish I really could and did love God completely and perfectly because surely he deserves that.

And that knowledge of failing the law puts me in a place where I know I need the grace of God, instead of just demands from him.
No one is making demands of God. Since you've quoted Job above,

How then can man be just with God? Or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?

Jesus was just a man.
 
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