This 1 parable refutes all 5 points of calvinism- tulip

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armylngst

Well-known member
Matthew 13
1The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.


18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.


19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

T- man can choose to hear, see and receive the gospel
U- all can choose to believe and receive as demonstrated in the parable of the 4 soils
L- all soils received the seed without exception
I- 3 soils resisted all but 1 soil remained faithful and did not resist
P- 3/4 soils ( minds/hearts )did not preserver in the faith

* And as we can see they all had life to begin with in each soil. Only something alive can be choked. You cannot choke the dead lol.
* And only something alive can be scorched by the Sun and withered.
* Only someone alive can receive the word in the heart and have it snatched away
* Only someone alive can receive the word with Joy and endure for a while

hope this helps !!!
So T- Jesus lied to His disciples when they asked Him "Who then can be saved". Got it
U - Salvation is by our works, our decision. Got it.
L - Atonement is universal, therefore the sin which separates us from God is universally removed, therefore the atonement, which has just been defined as salvation, is universal. You are a universalist. Got it.
I - The 1 soil is the elect, and you are correct, NONE resisted because grace is irresistible to the hearts prepared beforehand by God to receive the gospel. Those who are the adopted children of God in Ephesians 1, who were chosen before the foundation of the world.
P- God is the motivator behind the Perseverance of the Saints, and you just claimed that God can and does fail. Got it. Jude says the exact opposite in Jude 24 and 25.

I think what you are missing here is that three of the soils are on the broad road that leads to hell, having not actually been saved, and only the good soil are those who found the narrow gate that leads to life, and entered in. Jesus is clear that only FEW find salvation. The rest are the same as those Jesus said in John 6 were drawn to Him, but were not drawn by the Father but by curiosity and word of mouth. Only the 12 remained as the ones who were drawn by God. All the rest left Him. Those who the word did not penetrate their hearts, those whose reason for coming to Jesus were worldly desires (they wanted to make Him King so He would feed them), and those whom heard what Jesus said, but His words did not take root and they left. The 12 were the good soil, though one was said to only have been drawn by God to betray Christ. Thought one was a devil.

Please tell me that you aren't trying to say that those whom God has made alive, die again? I mean, really? When did you discover that God fails?
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Lydia is not an OT Saint. At no time were any OT Saint ever referred to as regenerated.

The entire OT is a stellar example of faith before regeneration.
You assume they were not regenerated. Jesus discussed regeneration with Nicodemus as if he should have known what it was.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
Matthew 13
1The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.


18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.


19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

T- man can choose to hear, see and receive the gospel
U- all can choose to believe and receive as demonstrated in the parable of the 4 soils
L- all soils received the seed without exception
I- 3 soils resisted all but 1 soil remained faithful and did not resist
P- 3/4 soils ( minds/hearts )did not preserver in the faith

* And as we can see they all had life to begin with in each soil. Only something alive can be choked. You cannot choke the dead lol.
* And only something alive can be scorched by the Sun and withered.
* Only someone alive can receive the word in the heart and have it snatched away
* Only someone alive can receive the word with Joy and endure for a while

hope this helps !!!
What happened civic? You used to push Calvinism and now here you are arguing against it, so when do you think you will get your doctrines straight on this?

I am not a Calvinist nor a believer in Arminianism but I would have to disagree with your assessment of your passages above, for the Bible indeed teaches predestination and once elect always elect but the problem with these other interpretations, is that they fail to understand why God cannot save everyone but must let some perish in their own choice to sin while he saves others from that same choice to sin.

You might want to start getting a correct understanding of this by prayerfully reading and meditating on what God says to Israel in Isaiah 43:3 and what Paul is revealing in Romans 9:13-24 and especially what he says in verses 22-24.

Why did God have to give Egypt, Cush and Seba in order to turn Israel to himself in repentance?

If God had of extended equal mercy and grace unto all four of these peoples, would any of them have been saved at all Civic?

Read Romans 9, and especially verses 22-24, what does Paul reveal about this?

If God just asked us all human beings equally to repent and receive the gospel message, how many of us would be able to do this being totally depraved in our sins?

Man, I got this truth straight right from the start of my salvation, for I knew that it was God who led me to repentance and faith and that it had nothing to do with me at all.

Oh indeed I had to choose, but I only chose because God used every situation in my life experience and especially with other lost people to turn me around to make that choice.

Nevertheless, he doesn't do this for everyone and can't either and the reason why he can't isn't because of any flaw or weakness in himself but because of our depraved condition, for he uses the unchosen vessels to have an effect on those chosen in order to turn them around to himself in repentance and faith.
 
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Alexander the adequate

Well-known member
You assume they were not regenerated. Jesus discussed regeneration with Nicodemus as if he should have known what it was.
I have been taught that Jesus was using a standard teaching technique when he asked why a leading teacher of Israel did not know the concept of being born again, Based on what we know about Nicodemus, if there was anyone at that time who would have known what born again was, it would have been him. So the actual point Jesus was making in asking NIcodemus about not knowing, was to tell him, "Nobody knew, it is a new revelation."
That does not answer the question on whether Christ had indwelt believers in the OT and regenerated them, but other points do: Jesus called what would happen with the indwelling at pentecost was the promise of the Father and that they would have to wait for it. It was a new event unexperienced till the day of pentecost, One other thought on it is that Jesus had to leave so the Spirit could come and indwell them. It doesn't make sense that some Jewish believers were already indwelt/regenerated, because of jesus saying the Spirit could not come till He left
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
I have been taught that Jesus was using a standard teaching technique when he asked why a leading teacher of Israel did not know the concept of being born again, Based on what we know about Nicodemus, if there was anyone at that time who would have known what born again was, it would have been him. So the actual point Jesus was making in asking NIcodemus about not knowing, was to tell him, "Nobody knew, it is a new revelation."
That does not answer the question on whether Christ had indwelt believers in the OT and regenerated them, but other points do: Jesus called what would happen with the indwelling at pentecost was the promise of the Father and that they would have to wait for it. It was a new event unexperienced till the day of pentecost, One other thought on it is that Jesus had to leave so the Spirit could come and indwell them. It doesn't make sense that some Jewish believers were already indwelt/regenerated, because of jesus saying the Spirit could not come till He left
The OT experiences with the Holy Spirit were as non permanent as the sacrifices that they also offered.

Therefore whereas the OT clearly tells us that the Spirit entered into various different people and for a time transformed them, the Spirit couldn't have continued to dwell in them because the acceptable sacrifice for their sins was not offered yet and that sacrifice of course was Christ Jesus himself.

His sacrifice was once and for all time and unlike the OT sacrifices of bulls and goat which were only offered as types and actually never took away sins anyhow.
 
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Alexander the adequate

Well-known member
The OT experiences with the Holy Spirit were as non permanent as the sacrifices that they also offered.

Therefore whereas the OT clearly tells us that the Spirit entered into various different people and for a time transformed them, the Spirit couldn't have continued to dwell in them because the acceptable sacrifice for their sins was not offered yet and that sacrifice of course was Christ Jesus himself.

His sacrifice was once and for all time and unlike the OT sacrifices of bulls and goat which were only offered as types and actually never took away sins anyhow.
Are you positing the idea that the Spirit could not indwell us until after Jesus paid for sin? While that would be historically, sequentially true, I was thinking that the Spirit could not indwell us until the Son had returned to Heaven, but I could not, by referencing scripture, explain why He had to first.

We know it is a fact he had to leave first, but do we know why?
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
Are you positing the idea that the Spirit could not indwell us until after Jesus paid for sin? While that would be historically, sequentially true, I was thinking that the Spirit could not indwell us until the Son had returned to Heaven, but I could not, by referencing scripture, explain why He had to first.

Not exactly but rather he Spirit could only enter people temporarily and not permanently until Jesus died for our sins and made it possible for the Spirit to dwell within us permanently.

So the Spirit could dwell within people for short moments but not permanently.
We know it is a fact he had to leave first, but do we know why?

Yes because he had to offer himself before God first.

If you read Daniel 7, you will see that he returns to heaven in order to receive the Kingdom from the Ancient of Days first.
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
But you didn't say ad hominem. You said ad hoc.

No, he didn't say, "ad hoc", he said, "ad hom":

Amen! Here comes the screams I was a Calvinist for 40 years and your committing the ad hom fallacy

And Bocco, you KNOW he didn't say "ad hoc", since if he did, there would have been no reason for your response:

"What is ad hom?
I know ad hoc, and I know ad hominem.
"
 

Alexander the adequate

Well-known member
Not exactly but rather he Spirit could only enter people temporarily and not permanently until Jesus died for our sins and made it possible for the Spirit to dwell within us permanently.

So the Spirit could dwell within people for short moments but not permanently.


Yes because he had to offer himself before God first.

If you read Daniel 7, you will see that he returns to heaven in order to receive the Kingdom from the Ancient of Days first.
if offering Himself was all it took for the Spirit to be able to permanently in dwellsus, why did Jesus say the Spirit could not come until He, Jesus, left?
 

Rockson

Active member
Our soil was plowed by God, praise his grace.

It was God who first prepared the "soil" of my heart and then planted the seed.
Where are you folks getting this from? Jeremiah 4:3, and Hosea 10:12 say the following,

For thus saith the LORD to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns.
Jeremiah 4:3

Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you. Hosea 10:12

Both of these verses say that WE are to prepare the soil of our hearts! It is WE who do the plowing.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Where are you folks getting this from? Jeremiah 4:3, and Hosea 10:12 say the following,

For thus saith the LORD to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns.
Jeremiah 4:3

Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you. Hosea 10:12

Both of these verses say that WE are to prepare the soil of our hearts! It is WE who do the plowing.
Are you saying we are the Farmer who sows the Gospel to ourselves?
 

Rockson

Active member
a change of heart is the regeneration
Let's go back to what that poster said, " I see the Lord opening her heart, nice gesture but no regeneration." The Lord opening a heart does not mean anything to do with irresistible grace. The Lord is willing to open everyone's heart if they don't close their eyes and ears to hearing and acting on the truth.

Mt 13:15 says people close their eyes and ears...if THEY didn't do it they would be saved and healed.
 

Rockson

Active member
Are you saying we are the Farmer who sows the Gospel to ourselves?
First the plowing and breaking up of the ground isn't sowing. Jesus said, "He that has an ear let him hear!" Now we decide what type of soil we will be. If one chooses NOT to hear then it's seed sown among the rocks. If a person decides they're going to be hard hearted that's their choice not God's.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
First the plowing and breaking up of the ground isn't sowing. Jesus said, "He that has an ear let him hear!" Now we decide what type of soil we will be. If one chooses NOT to hear then it's seed sown among the rocks. If a person decides they're going to be hard hearted that's their choice not God's.
But you used Verses showing we are the Farmer who breaks the ground. Who does the Sowing if not the Farmer?
 
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