This is for those who deny the deity of Jesus Christ!

jamesh

Active member
He clearly identifies Himself as the "Almighty" at Revelation 1:8 and the Alpha & Omega here and elsewhere!

Revelation 1:8, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
Revelation 1:11, "saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches; to Ephesus and to Smyrna, and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.'

Revelation 1:17, "And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as a dead man. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying, "Do not be afraid, I am the first and the last, Verse 18, "and the living One, and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and Hades."
Also at Revelation 22:12-13, "Behold, I am coming quickly and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. Vs13, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

The speaker at Revelation 1:8 is Jesus Christ Himself. I know for a number of reasons. At vs5, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first born of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us, and released us from our sins by His blood."

The Father did not release us from our sins by His blood, Jesus did. Acts 20:28b confirms this. "to shepherd the Church of God which He purchased with His own blood."

Secondly, vs 7, "Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. Even so, Amen." Again, this is Jesus Christ. The Father is not the one coming, Jesus is?

At verse 8 we are presented with Jesus Christ Himself doing the speaking. "I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." The Greek word for "almighty" is "pantokrator."

Tell me, am I "assuming" anything? Am I adding anything to the text? Since Jesus Christ is Holy, perfect and sinless can we "assume" He is not telling us the truth but instead "lying" that He is not the Lord God Almighty?

The final proof that Jesus is doing the speaking can be found at Revelation 2:8, "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: "The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, SAYS THIS.

Jesus Himself confirms He is the one doing the speaking. As a side note, I did not see the need to bring up the "Alpha & Omega" or the "First and Last" issue, I could have but it was not necessary.

IN GOD THE SON,
james
 

OldShepherd

Well-known member
If I may, some of my findings.
Anti-Trinitarians endlessly squabble and bicker about words, used by Trinitarians, trying to express the nature of God, as revealed in scripture. All words are inherently finite and imperfect, therefore the words, "Trinity,” ”triune,” ”person," "being," "entity," "substance," "essence,” ”nature,” ”who,” Hypostatic union,," and/or any other words, are totally inadequate to describe God, the infinite, perfect, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent. But the fact that human words are finite, limited and imperfect does not prove or disprove anything about the doctrine of the Trinity.
Here are scriptural truths I have posted before, without any so-called unscriptural words or man made doctrines.
1. There is one God! The Father is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Father is not the Son or the Spirit. Numerous vss. e.g., John 6:27, Gal 1:1, Gal 1:3, Eph 6:23, Philippians 2:11, 1 Thess 1:1, 2 Tim 1:2, Titus 1:4, 1 Peter 1:2, 2 Peter 1:17, et. al.
2. There is one God! The Son is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Son is not the Father or the Spirit.
[1] Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
[2] Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
[3] Luk 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.
[4] Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[5] Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[6] Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
[7] Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
[8] Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
[9] John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
[10] Joh 10:33
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
[11] Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
[12] Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
[13] John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
[14] Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
[15] Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
[16] Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
[17] Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
[18] Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he [God] hath purchased with his own blood.
[19] Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
[20] 2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
[21] Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[22] Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
[23] Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
[24] Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
[25] Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he [God] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
[26] Heb 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
[27] Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
[28] 1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
[29] 1 Tim 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
[30] 1 Tim 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
[31] Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
[32] 2 Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
[33] 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
[34] Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
[35] Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
[36] Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.​
 

jamesh

Active member
Thank you for your input brother Vietnam Veteran. The anti's cannot prove from this verse that the speaker is somebody other than Jesus Christ/the Lord God Almighty. Keep up the good work!

IN GOD THE SON,
james
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
He clearly identifies Himself as the "Almighty" at Revelation 1:8 and the Alpha & Omega here and elsewhere!

No he didn't.

Revelation 1:8, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
Revelation 1:11, "saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches; to Ephesus and to Smyrna, and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.'

Revelation 1:17, "And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as a dead man. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying, "Do not be afraid, I am the first and the last, Verse 18, "and the living One, and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and Hades."
Also at Revelation 22:12-13, "Behold, I am coming quickly and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. Vs13, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

The speaker at Revelation 1:8 is Jesus Christ Himself. I know for a number of reasons. At vs5, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first born of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us, and released us from our sins by His blood."

The Father did not release us from our sins by His blood, Jesus did. Acts 20:28b confirms this. "to shepherd the Church of God which He purchased with His own blood."

7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

So you saw absolutely no significance in the red bolded word there eh?

Secondly, vs 7, "Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. Even so, Amen." Again, this is Jesus Christ. The Father is not the one coming, Jesus is?

At verse 8 we are presented with Jesus Christ Himself doing the speaking. "I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." The Greek word for "almighty" is "pantokrator."

Well then, according to your own interpretive method, John must be the Almighty God.

I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty. I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom...

Right?


Tell me, am I "assuming" anything? Am I adding anything to the text? Since Jesus Christ is Holy, perfect and sinless can we "assume" He is not telling us the truth but instead "lying" that He is not the Lord God Almighty?

If you cannot see your obvious error, it is likely no one can help you.

The final proof that Jesus is doing the speaking can be found at Revelation 2:8, "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: "The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, SAYS THIS.

Jesus Himself confirms He is the one doing the speaking. As a side note, I did not see the need to bring up the "Alpha & Omega" or the "First and Last" issue, I could have but it was not necessary.

IN GOD THE SON,
james
 

jamesh

Active member
I have an idea? Please tell me who the speaker is at Revelation 1:8? Or to put it another way, prove that the speaker is not Jesus Christ? I'm not interested in unrelated verses like Galatians 5:19-20 or 1 Peter 1:14-17. Stay focused on topic.

IN GOD THE SON,
james
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
I have an idea? Please tell me who the speaker is at Revelation 1:8? Or to put it another way, prove that the speaker is not Jesus Christ?

No one needs to prove the speaker is not Jesus Christ. You need to prove it is.

John is speaking about Jesus in the second person in verse 7 and his "Amen" signals a full stop. The speaker in verse 8 speaks in the first person as does the speaker in verse 9.


I'm not interested in unrelated verses like Galatians 5:19-20 or 1 Peter 1:14-17. Stay focused on topic.

That's in my signature. Pay attention.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
He clearly identifies Himself as the "Almighty" at Revelation 1:8 and the Alpha & Omega here and elsewhere!

Revelation 1:8, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
Revelation 1:11, "saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches; to Ephesus and to Smyrna, and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.'

Revelation 1:17, "And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as a dead man. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying, "Do not be afraid, I am the first and the last, Verse 18, "and the living One, and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and Hades."
Also at Revelation 22:12-13, "Behold, I am coming quickly and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. Vs13, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

The speaker at Revelation 1:8 is Jesus Christ Himself. I know for a number of reasons. At vs5, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first born of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us, and released us from our sins by His blood."

The Father did not release us from our sins by His blood, Jesus did. Acts 20:28b confirms this. "to shepherd the Church of God which He purchased with His own blood."

Secondly, vs 7, "Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. Even so, Amen." Again, this is Jesus Christ. The Father is not the one coming, Jesus is?

At verse 8 we are presented with Jesus Christ Himself doing the speaking. "I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." The Greek word for "almighty" is "pantokrator."

Tell me, am I "assuming" anything? Am I adding anything to the text? Since Jesus Christ is Holy, perfect and sinless can we "assume" He is not telling us the truth but instead "lying" that He is not the Lord God Almighty?

The final proof that Jesus is doing the speaking can be found at Revelation 2:8, "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: "The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, SAYS THIS.

Jesus Himself confirms He is the one doing the speaking. As a side note, I did not see the need to bring up the "Alpha & Omega" or the "First and Last" issue, I could have but it was not necessary.

IN GOD THE SON,
james
No he doesn't but in accordance with the very context, he is identifying himself as the only one who was alive and became dead for our sins and was resurrected to life again to take possession of the keys of death and hell for all men, first and last, no one ever coming before him and no one ever coming after him, he alone is the Messiah period.

Every single human being that ever lived or will live is a first and last of who they are and therefore the term first and last does not in and of itself mean that the person who it is applied to is God or revealing himself as God, for it depends on the context surrounding it's use.

Answer this question James, are you not the only one of your kind also, are you not a first and last of your kind as a human being?

In Isaiah 44:6, God was not using it to reveal that he alone is the only first and last, but he is using it instead to reveal that he is the Only True God, no one ever coming before him and no one ever coming after him but he alone is Almighty God period and the context is what reveals this.

Here is another verse that makes it plain what first and last means below.

Isaiah 43:10
“You are My witnesses,” says the Lord,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.

Before Me there was no God formed (first),
Nor shall there be after Me (last).

The same is true about Jesus' use of this term first and last in Revelation 1:17-18 and 2:8, for the context very clearly reveals that Jesus is using it not to reveal that he is the Only God but rather that he is the only human Messiah and savior of all men, having obtained the keys of death and hell to set men free from their grip and power.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
Thank you for your input brother Vietnam Veteran. The anti's cannot prove from this verse that the speaker is somebody other than Jesus Christ/the Lord God Almighty. Keep up the good work!

IN GOD THE SON,
james
First, it is you who are the anti's and not those who believe Jesus Christ has come in the flesh and as the Bible describes what flesh truly is.

Nevertheless, we don't have to prove that it is not Jesus speaking in certain verses of Rev, for the words "first and last, Alpha and Omega and beginning and end" are synonyms that apply both to the Father and the Son but for two entirely different positions, for God the Father and as per Isaiah 44:6 and 43:10, first and last means he is The Only True God and just as Jesus said he was in John 17:3.

But for Jesus these synonyms refer to his being the only Messiah and Savior who was alive and became dead for our sins and was raised by God to life everlasting and given the keys of death and hell to deliver from death and hell all who will repent and come to God through him and as per Revelation 1:17-18 and 2:8.

God cannot die and that within itself should be enough to reveal to you that Jesus' use of this term "first and last" was not to reveal himself as God but only to reveal himself as the human Messiah and Savior that God sent for to die for our sins on the cross.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
First, it is you who are the anti's and not those who believe Jesus Christ has come in the flesh and as the Bible describes what flesh truly is.

Nevertheless, we don't have to prove that it is not Jesus speaking in certain verses of Rev, for the words "first and last, Alpha and Omega and beginning and end" are synonyms that apply both to the Father and the Son but for two entirely different positions, for God the Father and as per Isaiah 44:6 and 43:10, first and last means he is The Only True God and just as Jesus said he was in John 17:3.

"First and Last" or "Alpha and Omega" both refer to this:

"ALL AUTHORITY in heaven and earth has been given to me."

But for Jesus these synonyms refer to his being the only Messiah and Savior who was alive and became dead for our sins and was raised by God to life everlasting and given the keys of death and hell to deliver from death and hell all who will repent and come to God through him and as per Revelation 1:17-18 and 2:8.

God cannot die and that within itself should be enough to reveal to you that Jesus' use of this term "first and last" was not to reveal himself as God but only to reveal himself as the human Messiah and Savior that God sent for to die for our sins on the cross.
 

Tanachreader

Well-known member
"First and Last" or "Alpha and Omega" both refer to this:

"ALL AUTHORITY in heaven and earth has been given to me."
Everything started with Jesus and everything will end with him. He is the Alpha and the Omega.
Jesus is the Creator and Finisher of all things.

1¶In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Everything started with Jesus and everything will end with him. He is the Alpha and the Omega.
Jesus is the Creator and Finisher of all things.

1¶In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

I see. Someone had to given him his own authority.
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
Revelation 1:8, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
The anti's cannot prove from this verse that the speaker is somebody other than Jesus Christ/the Lord God Almighty.

I believe Jesus Christ is the Lord God Almighty manifest in the flesh !!!

But just to clarify our views...

Does the name "the Almighty" in Revelation 1:8 refer to a WHAT* or to a WHO*?

Notice the definite article "the", so there is only one "Almighty".

I say "the Almighty" refers to a WHO named YHWH.

*Trinitarians say God is one WHAT, three WHO's.
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
Does the name "the Almighty" in Revelation 1:8 refer to a WHAT* or to a WHO*?

Hint...

Revelation 1:8, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

And there is only ONE who...

Revelation 1:8, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.
 

OldShepherd

Well-known member
I believe Jesus Christ is the Lord God Almighty manifest in the flesh !!!
But just to clarify our views...
Does the name "the Almighty" in Revelation 1:8 refer to a WHAT* or to a WHO*?
Notice the definite article "the", so there is only one "Almighty".
I say "the Almighty" refers to a WHO named YHWH.
*Trinitarians say God is one WHAT, three WHO's.
I will give this ridiculous post the only response it merits. Yes!
 

civic

Well-known member
First, it is you who are the anti's and not those who believe Jesus Christ has come in the flesh and as the Bible describes what flesh truly is.

Nevertheless, we don't have to prove that it is not Jesus speaking in certain verses of Rev, for the words "first and last, Alpha and Omega and beginning and end" are synonyms that apply both to the Father and the Son but for two entirely different positions, for God the Father and as per Isaiah 44:6 and 43:10, first and last means he is The Only True God and just as Jesus said he was in John 17:3.

But for Jesus these synonyms refer to his being the only Messiah and Savior who was alive and became dead for our sins and was raised by God to life everlasting and given the keys of death and hell to deliver from death and hell all who will repent and come to God through him and as per Revelation 1:17-18 and 2:8.

God cannot die and that within itself should be enough to reveal to you that Jesus' use of this term "first and last" was not to reveal himself as God but only to reveal himself as the human Messiah and Savior that God sent for to die for our sins on the cross.
No YHWH alone declares He is the First and the Last and besides Him there is no other God. Yet the Son declares He is the First and the Last, the Alpha and Omega, the Lord God Almighty.

These passages in Revelation make it clear that Jesus is God. Remember it is Jesus in the NT who is Coming back to earth that every eye will see. It was Jesus who was pierced on the cross for our sins. John is clearly once again calling Jesus God!!!!!!! The Coming and the coming in the clouds never refers to the Father in the NT but always to Jesus.

Revelation 1:7-8
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."


We know from Revelation 1:8 that Alpha and Omega is the Almighty. So we can see that Christ is the Almighty


Revelation 1:17
17And when I saw Him, I fell at his feet as dead. And He laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I Am the first and the last:

We know from Revelation 1:17-18 that the first and the last is He that lives, was dead but is alive forevermore is Christ.


Revelation 2:8
"To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.

Revelation 22:12-13
12 "Behold, I Am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."


We know from Revelation 22:13 that the first and the last is the Alpha and Omega.

Revelation 22:16,20
16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I Am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.



The immediate text clearly tells us that it was Jesus who was pierced and who is Coming in the clouds. This person coming in the clouds is God(Jesus-the Son of Man),

Daniel 7:13-14
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 "And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

Matthew 24:30-31
30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64
Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

1 Thessalonians 4:17-18
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Revelation 1:7-8
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."



So we can see that the One who comes/is coming in the NT always refers to Jesus the Son of Man and NEVER refers to the Father. Therefore we can conclude it is Jesus who is coming whom John calls God the Alpha and Omega. This is sound biblical exegesis based on the context of the passage as well as the principle established in both Testaments on the One who is Coming in/with the Clouds- The Son of Man not the Father !!!!!!


Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
'I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.


Isaiah 48:12
"Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.


hope this helps !!!

next..........................
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Revelation 1:7-8
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Why don't you just do it this way?

8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.
9 I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus."

There. John is Almighty God.

How do your like your own interpretation method now?
 

civic

Well-known member
I knew there was a good reason I had her on ignore, our lords god. Don't feed the T_ _ L_ S
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
No YHWH alone declares He is the First and the Last and besides Him there is no other God. Yet the Son declares He is the First and the Last, the Alpha and Omega, the Lord God Almighty.

These passages in Revelation make it clear that Jesus is God. Remember it is Jesus in the NT who is Coming back to earth that every eye will see. It was Jesus who was pierced on the cross for our sins. John is clearly once again calling Jesus God!!!!!!! The Coming and the coming in the clouds never refers to the Father in the NT but always to Jesus.

Revelation 1:7-8
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."


We know from Revelation 1:8 that Alpha and Omega is the Almighty. So we can see that Christ is the Almighty


Revelation 1:17
17And when I saw Him, I fell at his feet as dead. And He laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I Am the first and the last:

We know from Revelation 1:17-18 that the first and the last is He that lives, was dead but is alive forevermore is Christ.


Revelation 2:8
"To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.

Revelation 22:12-13
12 "Behold, I Am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."


We know from Revelation 22:13 that the first and the last is the Alpha and Omega.

Revelation 22:16,20
16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I Am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.



The immediate text clearly tells us that it was Jesus who was pierced and who is Coming in the clouds. This person coming in the clouds is God(Jesus-the Son of Man),

Daniel 7:13-14
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 "And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

Matthew 24:30-31
30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64
Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

1 Thessalonians 4:17-18
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Revelation 1:7-8
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."



So we can see that the One who comes/is coming in the NT always refers to Jesus the Son of Man and NEVER refers to the Father. Therefore we can conclude it is Jesus who is coming whom John calls God the Alpha and Omega. This is sound biblical exegesis based on the context of the passage as well as the principle established in both Testaments on the One who is Coming in/with the Clouds- The Son of Man not the Father !!!!!!


Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
'I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.


Isaiah 48:12
"Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.


hope this helps !!!

next..........................
Nope, for he never says that he alone is the first and the last but instead he uses the term first and last to reveal that he alone is God Yahweh Almighty and that is what the context reveals.

However when Jesus uses this term in Revelation 1:17-18 and 2:8, he uses it to reveal that he is the only Anointed Human Savior, who lived in complete obedience to God and then died for the sins of men and then was risen from the dead never to ever die again and by which he obtained the keys of death and hell to see men free from their hold on them.

God didn't die and rise again from the dead and the words of Jesus "and I have the keys of death and hell" very clearly reveal that he is speaking of himself as "The First and Last" Anointed Human Savior of men, none ever coming before him and none will ever come after him either.


Sorry, but to prove what you are saying above, you would have to show in those texts where God specifically tells us that he alone is the only first and last and he never says any such thing but instead uses the terminology to reveal that he alone is The True God.


Besides this, what is meant by Jesus' words in Revelation 1:17-18 and 2:8 cannot contradict his very clear salvific words in John 17:3 and you have never been able to get around what Jesus clearly said in that passage and nor will you ever be able to either, for there is no way around it for your false doctrine.

By the way, the words 'First and Last and Alpha and Omega and Beginning and End are all synonyms meaning the same thing within the context they are being used and which is "no one coming before and no one coming after period.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
No YHWH alone declares He is the First and the Last and besides Him there is no other God. Yet the Son declares He is the First and the Last, the Alpha and Omega, the Lord God Almighty.

These passages in Revelation make it clear that Jesus is God. Remember it is Jesus in the NT who is Coming back to earth that every eye will see. It was Jesus who was pierced on the cross for our sins. John is clearly once again calling Jesus God!!!!!!! The Coming and the coming in the clouds never refers to the Father in the NT but always to Jesus.

Revelation 1:7-8
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."


We know from Revelation 1:8 that Alpha and Omega is the Almighty. So we can see that Christ is the Almighty


Revelation 1:17
17And when I saw Him, I fell at his feet as dead. And He laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I Am the first and the last:

We know from Revelation 1:17-18 that the first and the last is He that lives, was dead but is alive forevermore is Christ.


Revelation 2:8
"To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.

Revelation 22:12-13
12 "Behold, I Am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."


We know from Revelation 22:13 that the first and the last is the Alpha and Omega.

Revelation 22:16,20
16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I Am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.



The immediate text clearly tells us that it was Jesus who was pierced and who is Coming in the clouds. This person coming in the clouds is God(Jesus-the Son of Man),

Daniel 7:13-14
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 "And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

Matthew 24:30-31
30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64
Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

1 Thessalonians 4:17-18
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Revelation 1:7-8
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."



So we can see that the One who comes/is coming in the NT always refers to Jesus the Son of Man and NEVER refers to the Father. Therefore we can conclude it is Jesus who is coming whom John calls God the Alpha and Omega. This is sound biblical exegesis based on the context of the passage as well as the principle established in both Testaments on the One who is Coming in/with the Clouds- The Son of Man not the Father !!!!!!


Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
'I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.


Isaiah 48:12
"Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.


hope this helps !!!

next..........................
By the way, it isn't even Jesus speaking in Revelation 1:7-8 but rather the Father, or didn't you notice that in verse 7 it doesn't say "I am coming in the clouds" but rather "he is coming in the clouds"?

This is one of those places in scripture where God has allowed a delusion for those who are not led by his Spirit when reading this and which Paul told us that God would send on those who do not love the truth and as per 2 Thessalonians 2:11.

For trins being they are led by their flesh, are incapable of seeing the fact that two persons and beings are speaking in Revelation and one of them is God the Father and the other is Jesus his Human Son but both hold the titles and synonyms, "First and Last and Alpha and Omega and Beginning and End" but each for entirely different offices and positions.
 
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