This thread will be where the miniature footsie dude effectively shuts down the reason for this forum's existence

[CrowCross]

That the universe needs a God is just an assertion on your part. You haven't shown a direct connection between the universe and any God.

It's your claim the universe self created from nothing....or at best your lack of providing an answer as to were the universe came from.

....as I said, proving God is simple. Why do you fight God?

 

[Whatsisface]

It's your claim the universe self created from nothing....

Oh come on, stop straw manning me. I have told you at least twice now that I don't think the universe self created from nothing. Why are you ignoring this?

or at best your lack of providing an answer as to were the universe came from.

No one knows why there is something rather than nothing, but you are claiming you do know but are providing no good evidence or reason to show it.

....as I said, proving God is simple.

You most certainly haven't proven God. Do you know what proof is?

Why do you fight God?

I'm not fighting God, I'm trying to debate you. Don't forget, as many Christians do, I don't believe God exists so I'm not fighting Him.

 

[Eightcrackers]

He doesn't want to change your mind. He wants to change your heart so that He can renew your mind.

...
Then he knows what to do.

Still.

 

[stiggy wiggy]

...
Then he knows what to do

Of course He does. Show me where anyone indicated otherwise.

 

[CrowCross]

Oh come on, stop straw manning me. I have told you at least twice now that I don't think the universe self created from nothing. Why are you ignoring this?

Then where did it come from if not God?

 

[Whatsisface]

Then where did it come from if not God?

I don't know. But saying, "then where did it come from if not God", isn't evidence God was responsible. It's a question that assumes only two possibilities, God or a self created universe from nothing.

There are at least two other possibilities, one is the universe exists out of necessity, the other that something is going on that we have no idea about. Oh, and another is that if time and space were created at the big bang as many physicists think, then the universe has existed for all time, just not eternal time avoiding the problem of an infinite regress.

As I may have said before, to you that the universe is natural seems counter intuitive and on the face of it illogical, right? But there are many things we have discovered true about the universe that are on the face of it counter intuitive and illogical, relativity and quantum mechanics give good examples I can relate if you like.

Newton, great mind though he was, had no idea about relativity or quantum mechanics. Maybe it's the same with us, that we have no idea of why there can be a universe without a creator, as Newton had no idea of relativity.

 

[CrowCross]

I don't know. But saying, "then where did it come from if not God", isn't evidence God was responsible. It's a question that assumes only two possibilities, God or a self created universe from nothing.

That's where they all end up as you continue to move 'backwards"

There are at least two other possibilities, one is the universe exists out of necessity,

What necessity?

the other that something is going on that we have no idea about.

We're in a matrix?

Oh, and another is that if time and space were created at the big bang as many physicists think, then the universe has existed for all time, just not eternal time avoiding the problem of an infinite regress.

That doesn't explain the "stuff" of the BB.

As I may have said before, to you that the universe is natural seems counter intuitive and on the face of it illogical, right?

As I said proving God is simple...we're here.

But there are many things we have discovered true about the universe that are on the face of it counter intuitive and illogical, relativity and quantum mechanics give good examples I can relate if you like.

Can you explain it by starting with complete nothingness?

Newton, great mind though he was, had no idea about relativity or quantum mechanics. Maybe it's the same with us, that we have no idea of why there can be a universe without a creator, as Newton had no idea of relativity.

Now you rely on the "science of the gaps".

 

[Whatsisface]

That's where they all end up as you continue to move 'backwards"

No, they don't.

What necessity?

It's a logical possibility.

We're in a matrix?

No. I was talking about some aspect of physics.

That doesn't explain the "stuff" of the BB.

Neither does saying God did it.

As I said proving God is simple...we're here.

Oh dear. That's not a proof, it's a simplistic assertion.

Can you explain it by starting with complete nothingness?

Oh no, please, not again.

Now you rely on the "science of the gaps".

To a degree yes. But what I've outlined is a possibility you won't consider, and you've hardly dealt with my point.

 

[e v e 21]

I am not making demands; I am stating a fact - if he wants my attention, he knows how to get it.

It is not my fault that he made me unable to accept what he offers as evidence of his existence.

By "humble", do you mean "gullible"? Because that's what I get from this essay.

I do not believe, but nor do I categorically discount.
My door is open, but only he can walk through it.

Ask Him to. ?

 

[Eightcrackers]

Ask Him to. ?

I don't believe he exists, so I am not capable of asking earnestly.

Which, I am told, is an integral part of the process.


It's his shot, and it always has been.

 

[Dizerner]

Would you say it is beyond your willpower to desire to know if God exists or not?

I'm not sure what a lack of belief has to do with earnestness here.

I've sought God without being sure if he exists or not, granted maybe I had some special ability to do that but...

I think there is a free will component sometimes denied, where underneath is passivity and rejection.

By "putting the ball in God's court" one can feel completely excused for ignoring him.

 

[Furion]

It's his shot, and it always has been.

We are informed that its possible if one is not disciplined, then they may be illegitimate.

It's a distinct possibility that you could just be passed over, as you sit there waiting for God to pet your ego.

 

[Eightcrackers]

Would you say it is beyond your willpower to desire to know if God exists or not?

Absolutely not - if some god/s does exist, you bet I would want to know it.

I'm not sure what a lack of belief has to do with earnestness here.

In order to ask earnestly, one must believe that the person being asked, exists. Otherwise, you're just talking to thin air.

"Please convince me that you exist" is putting the cart before the horse - you assume the existence of the thing from which you seek an answer.

I think there is a free will component sometimes denied, where underneath is passivity and rejection.

In order for my choice to accept or reject your god, to exist at all - never mind be free - I must believe that he's there in order to be accepted/rejected.

If I go to my grave never having believed, this is not the same as my having "said no to him". That is an idiotic conflation - one cannot refuse what one does not see has been offered.

By "putting the ball in God's court" one can feel completely excused for ignoring him.

If he's the one that wants my attention, the onus is on him to get it; I cannot want his attention unless and until I believe that he exists.

If the only way you can resolve this is to "blame" me for choosing not to recognize what he has tried, and label it "ignoring" him, that's a you problem.

 

[Caroljeen]

In order to ask earnestly, one must believe that the person being asked, exists. Otherwise, you're just talking to thin air.

That's what it felt like when I earnestly prayed as an atheist. I didn't know or even believe that God existed but "if you are there please answer my prayer". And He did. That was the start of my becoming agnostic and then a theist and then a Christian.

You should give it a try.

 

[Whatsisface]

That's what it felt like when I earnestly prayed as an atheist. I didn't know or even believe that God existed but "if you are there please answer my prayer". And He did. That was the start of my becoming agnostic and then a theist and then a Christian.

You should give it a try.

I gave it a try, many years ago when in a desperate situation. I got nothing in return.

Can I ask, were you in a desperate situation when you prayed?

 

[Eightcrackers]

That's what it felt like when I earnestly prayed as an atheist. I didn't know or even believe that God existed but "if you are there please answer my prayer".

As soon as you think that the first prayer was answered, you are more likely to think that subsequent prayers are answered - how do you determine whether or not the first prayer was answered?

Did you pray for something obviously "miraculous"? An amputated limb to regrow?
Did other people see the "answer"?

And He did. That was the start of my becoming agnostic [...]

The moment you concluded that he answered, you were a theist.

You should give it a try.

As many have tried and failed as tried and "succeeded". As I've said, I am not interested in "confirmations" that rely solely on my internal perceptions - "funny feelings", "inner peace", or other such nonsense that can be the result of mere belief itself; I want something that can only be the work of the god.

If you go to a "World's Strongest Man" contest, you don't go to watch them lift teacups; if they're as strong as they claim to be, you want to see them lifting cars and pianos.

If there's a miraculous god out there, I'm going to need to see the miracles.

(And if your god only reveals himself to those that seek, but refuses to give most of us a reason to seek him, he's going to be frustrated, isn't he?)

 

[stiggy wiggy]

None of us will ever be able to conjure up God. He doesn't lend Himself to being an object while we are subject. He is Subject and we are object.

To quote Bob Dylan again: "Do we think He's just an errand boy to satisfy our wandering desires?"

He wants our lives, not our mere mental consent to His existence. He's already got that from the devil.

While we are hollering, "God, show me you're real, so I can believe," He's whispering, "Why? What would you do with that belief if I did?"

But our lives are so cluttered with noise, that we can hardly hear Him. His is a still, small voice. He doesn't want to rupture our flabby spiritual ears.

 

[Eightcrackers]

He wants our lives, not our mere mental consent to His existence.

If he wants the former, the latter is a required predicate.

While we are hollering, "God, show me you're real, so I can believe," He's whispering, "Why? What would you do with that belief if I did?"

No, he's not - he knows the answer to that question, and all questions.

(And if the answer is not to his liking, then he made us wrong.)

But our lives are so cluttered with noise, that we can hardly hear Him. His is a still, small voice.

Then he has no cause for complaint if he doesn't get the attention of the hard-of-hearing, has he?

Or should I say, those he made to be hard-of-hearing.

 

[stiggy wiggy]

If he wants the former, the latter is a required predicate.

No. The latter alone is an impediment to the former.

No, he's not - he knows the answer to that question, and all questions.

Correct. But He asks anyway. He taught that method to Socrates.

(And if the answer is not to his liking, then he made us wrong.)

That doesn't follow.

Then he has no cause for complaint if he doesn't get the attention of the hard-of-hearing, has he?

Correct. He never complains. He keeps plugging away.

Or should I say, those he made to be hard-of-hearing.

So now you're using the Socratic method of questioning. Questioning yourself. Let me answer: No, you should not. We are not born hard of hearing. We develop that on our own as a defense mechanism.

 

[Caroljeen]

I gave it a try, many years ago when in a desperate situation. I got nothing in return.

Can I ask, were you in a desperate situation when you prayed?

Yes
Prior to that, God was not in any of my thoughts. I refused to listen to people who wanted to talk to me about him. I thought it was a waste of my time.