Thought Experiment

[El Cid]

Because only the Christian God has the right characteristics that are sufficient to produce this universe.

Universe creating pixies also have the right characteristics. Does that mean they're real?

How do you know they have the right characteristics? Did they tell you?

 

[El Cid]

There are reasons, just not objective ones.

I am of the opinion that my morals are better than Hitler's.
"Are" they? Meaningless question.

Without an objective foundation for morality societies and individuals are on a slippery slope to anarchy and tyranny. This has been seen in history.

 

[El Cid]

There is another characteristic that the universe-causer must possess: existence.

Without invoking the universe - because that would be circular - show that the Christian god possesses the characteristic of existence.

Many things are shown to exist by the effects they cause. Such as dark matter and black holes. Neither can be empirically observed but most scientists agree they exist because of the effects they produce. So it is with God, the universe is His effect.

 

[El Cid]

Yes His character exists irrespective of your opinion.

Is his character good, independent of my opinion?
If you think so, prove it.

To those who know Him He has proven it.

Also, most humans agree that the basics of His moral laws are good which are based on His character.

"Most humans agree" is not enough to establish objectivity.

He objectively exists and is the good Himself. Therefore, the good objectively exists and is the basis for human morality.

 

[Whatsisface]

How do you know they have the right characteristics? Did they tell you?

By definition, as your God has been defined, and many other Gods have been defined.

 

[Eightcrackers]

Yes, He is necessary.

Great.
Prove it.

 

[Eightcrackers]

Many things are shown to exist by the effects they cause.

Not entirely - they are shown to exist, by being proven that they are the only possible cause of the effect/s in question.

"Aliens exist - they caused Amelia Earhart's disappearance"

would be absurd.

 

[Eightcrackers]

He objectively exists and is the good Himself.

You keep asserting this, not proving it.

 

[El Cid]

By definition, as your God has been defined, and many other Gods have been defined.

The Christian God has told us how He is defined. I and probably most people know nothing about your pixies, so you have to tell us their characteristics in order to see if they may have created this universe.

 

[Eightcrackers]

The Christian God has told us how He is defined.

Or, whoever came up with him, has told you that he has told you how he is defined.

When, in fact, they are the ones that defined him.

I and probably most people know nothing about your pixies, so you have to tell us their characteristics in order to see if they may have created this universe.

Their characteristics is that the are the only beings powerful enough to create the universe.

 

[Whatsisface]

The Christian God has told us how He is defined. I and probably most people know nothing about your pixies, so you have to tell us their characteristics in order to see if they may have created this universe.

Their characteristics are, omniscience, omnipotence and omnibenevolence.

The Christian God has told us how He is defined. I and probably most people know nothing about your pixies, so you have to tell us their characteristics in order to see if they may have created this universe.

As above.

 

[El Cid]

Not entirely - they are shown to exist, by being proven that they are the only possible cause of the effect/s in question.

Thats right, only the Christian God has all the characteristics necessary to produce this universe.

"Aliens exist - they caused Amelia Earhart's disappearance"

would be absurd.

Right. Her disappearance is not a necessary effect of aliens existing. Unlike the universe and God.

 

[Eightcrackers]

Thats right, only the Christian God has all the characteristics necessary to produce this universe.

One of the necessary characteristics is "exists" - how is this one established without circularly invoking the existence of the universe?

Right. Her disappearance is not a necessary effect of aliens existing. Unlike the universe and God.

Show that this god has the necessary characteristic of existence.

 

[El Cid]

You keep asserting this, not proving it.

I have provided strong evidence, the BB theory and the law of sufficient cause.

 

[Eightcrackers]

I have provided strong evidence, the BB theory and the law of sufficient cause.

The Big Bang tells us nothing about what caused it, and the law of sufficient cause is irrelevant because we are seeking a necessary cause.

 

[El Cid]

Or, whoever came up with him, has told you that he has told you how he is defined.

When, in fact, they are the ones that defined him.

Well the evidence says the reverse. He gave His definition to them.

Their characteristics is that the are the only beings powerful enough to create the universe.

There is more to creating than just having power. Both you and Michaelangelo have the power to create the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel but you are lacking the other characteristics to actually do so.

 

[El Cid]

Their characteristics are, omniscience, omnipotence and omnibenevolence.

How do you know this? But even so there is more to creating something than just having power, knowledge and goodness. Both you and Michaelangelo have the power and knowledge to create the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel but you are lacking the other characteristics to actually do so.

As above.

See above.

 

[Eightcrackers]

But even so there is more to creating something than just having power, knowledge and goodness.

What else is necessary?

(Also, why is goodness necessary? Not everything created with good intent, is it?)

 

[Whatsisface]

How do you know this?

They revealed it to me.

 

[Eightcrackers]

They revealed it to me.

And there is absolutely no disproving this.