Thought Experiment

[Lighthearted Atheist]

But Romans 1:20 isn't someone claiming to speak for God. Paul is making a philosophical argument to an audience of folks who were, effectively, unbelievers.

He isn't saying....please, you gotta believe me because God told me to tell you.

The argument from contingency doesn't require divine inspiration. And you don't need to believe in God to be persuaded by a philosophical argument for God.

Romans 1:20 isn't a bible 'story'.

I know that a man claimed to speak for God. men have claimed to also speak for Allah and Shiva. You still have not explained why you believe that Paul spoke for God but do not believe Mohamad did.

You seem to be saying The Bible is true because The Bible claims to speak for God - like the claim alone is proof. That does not seem rational to me.

 

[Lighthearted Atheist]

It's not a secret...like you expressed. I've already explained it to you.

You have not. But I'll accept the fact that you cannot articulate why we should believe The Bible over the Koran. You just do.

Thanks.

Go for it.

Sadly Muslims cannot prove Allah is real any more than you can prove God is real. It makes me wonder why you would believe one book when neither can prove it.

But you cannot explain why and that's cool. It helps me understand Christians better.

Thank you and have a great day.

 

[SteveB]

I do not know what this means.

What position do you think I am supporting?

OK

I do not know what this means.

I do not know what opinion you think I am claiming here.

Sure

So to translate all you posted - you cannot explain why anyone, including yourself, should believe The Bible and not the other books.

Thank you.

No. You don't want to know what it means.
This is exactly why you agree that your experiment is a fraud.

 

[Furion]

So...you would just choose to believe The Bible and ignore the others for reasons you cannot share.

Thank you.

I'm not in the business of deciding everyone's beliefs, LHA. Or even determine someone else's beliefs are valid or not. Not even God does that in this life.

I do think it is somewhat hopeless for you to gain understanding about all things God. You just have too many presuppositions about God, and some really incorrect thoughts. Your questions are big tells, LHA.

 

[CrowCross]

You have not. But I'll accept the fact that you cannot articulate why we should believe The Bible over the Koran. You just do.

Thanks.

I've told you...God hasn't given you the ability. How many times do I have to say that?

Sadly Muslims cannot prove Allah is real any more than you can prove God is real. It makes me wonder why you would believe one book when neither can prove it.

But you cannot explain why and that's cool. It helps me understand Christians better.

Thank you and have a great day.

I don't follow the Koran...so I have no way of promoting it for you.

 

[Lighthearted Atheist]

No. You don't want to know what it means.
This is exactly why you agree that your experiment is a fraud.

So you chose The Bible over the Koran and the Vedas because I do not want to know...the evidence you will not show?

OK. I do not understand that but I accept it.

 

[Lighthearted Atheist]

I'm not in the business of deciding everyone's beliefs, LHA.

Me either.

Or even determine someone else's beliefs are valid or not.

I did not ask that. I asked you to explain why you believe one book over the others. You said you cannot - or will not - explain that.

That's cool. But it has nothing to do with 'determining other's beliefs'.

Its just about explaining yours.

Not even God does that in this life.

OK

I do think it is somewhat hopeless for you to gain understanding about all things God.

I understand God just fine. I've read The Bible and I know his nature and rules. I just do not believe any of it is real.

You just have too many presuppositions about God, and some really incorrect thoughts. Your questions are big tells, LHA.

My only pre-supposition is that I ask anyone who claims to have supernatural knowledge to prove it. And that seems pretty dang logical.

 

[SteveB]

So you chose The Bible over the Koran and the Vedas because I do not want to know...the evidence you will not show?

OK. I do not understand that but I accept it.

Where I come from, experiments require actually learning, taking the time to understand what is necessary to actually know, and then doing what you're learning about.

While thought experiments may indeed take place, at a certain point they have to stop, and actual experiments must take place.

You were explicitly asked to provide the writings of the Shiva and Quran which state what you claim the bible says.

Yet you failed to follow through and provide them.

You then began playing games with it, and in doing so, it comes across ad you feigning ignorance.

This is not a game. This is a matter of where you want to spend your eternity.

Jesus said

Joh 7:16-17 WEB 16 Jesus therefore answered them, “My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. 17 If anyone desires to do his will, he will know about the teaching, whether it is from God, or if I am speaking from myself.

Show us the similarities between Shiva and the Quran and Jesus.

You keep using them as your excuse to ignore Jesus, so step up and show them.

 

[Lighthearted Atheist]

I've told you...God hasn't given you the ability. How many times do I have to say that?

Say it? none. Prove it? yes please. How can you know what abilities God has and has not given me? Or do you just think anyone who agrees with you has the ability and anyone who does not is lacking it?

Its like cognitive bias writ large.

I don't follow the Koran...so I have no way of promoting it for you.

So why did you choose The Bible as true and not the others? Are you saying that you never read or considered the other 10,000 gods - you just chose the first one you saw and believed it.

That's cool. It is not how I work but I understand.

 

[Whatsisface]

I've told you...God hasn't given you the ability. How many times do I have to say that?

So by what means do you understand? Please give an explanation, not a trite one liner.

 

[Lighthearted Atheist]

Where I come from, experiments require actually learning, taking the time to understand what is necessary to actually know, and then doing what you're learning about.

OK

While thought experiments may indeed take place, at a certain point they have to stop, and actual experiments must take place.

OK - what experiment can we create to prove Jesus rose from the dead?

You were explicitly asked to provide the writings of the Shiva and Quran which state what you claim the bible says.

Yet you failed to follow through and provide them.

You then began playing games with it, and in doing so, it comes across ad you feigning ignorance.

I never claimed the Vedas and Koran have the exact same words as The Bible. I claim they are all holy books that make claims about God.

You seem to be saying that if it does not match The Bible word for word then that is proof that it is not true. But you have yet to prove why we should trust The Bible.

This is not a game. This is a matter of where you want to spend your eternity.

Not until you prove anything you say is true. And since you cannot succinctly and directly answer the OP I do not see that happening any time soon.

Jesus said

Joh 7:16-17 WEB 16 Jesus therefore answered them, “My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. 17 If anyone desires to do his will, he will know about the teaching, whether it is from God, or if I am speaking from myself.

Show us the similarities between Shiva and the Quran and Jesus.

They all claim to be books about God. Billions swear they are true. None can be empirically proven. In that way they are the same.

Why do you think books with Jesus stories are true? You seem to think if I cannot prove the Koran has a Jesus story then it is false. You have yet to explain why you decided the Jesus story was true.

And that was the OP.

You keep using them as your excuse to ignore Jesus, so step up and show them.

My excuse is that you, a follower of Christ, cannot explain why anyone should believe The Bible beyond telling me to 'get ff my duff!' or 'step up and take charge!' like a bad 1980s sitcom coach.

Thank you - always a pleasure.

PS: Jesus is discussed as a holy man in the Koran over 50 times. I do not know if that helps.

 

[CrowCross]

Say it? none. Prove it? yes please. How can you know what abilities God has and has not given me?

If God gave you the ability to know....you would know.

 

[SteveB]

OK

OK - what experiment can we create to prove Jesus rose from the dead?

Do what Jesus said.

Joh 14:23 WEB Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

I never claimed the Vedas and Koran have the exact same words as The Bible. I claim they are all holy books that make claims about God.

No, actually they don't.
They have what you think is words of their own respective gods.

A basic read of the Quran, of the bible and the Vedas will show that they are totally different from each other. And each teaches things that are totally contradictory to the other.

So, if you're going to make these claims of yours, do the reading and make sure that you actually know what you're talking about instead of making flippant and unsubstantiated statements.

You seem to be saying that if it does not match The Bible word for word then that is proof that it is not true.

Nope. I expect you to be able to show that you actually have something from each to corroborate your claims.
I don't care if it's identically stated. I just wanted to see something that would corroborate your claims.

But you have yet to prove why we should trust The Bible.

Do you want people to tell you what to think, or do you want to know for yourself?

Because from what I've read of your posts, you want empirical evidence. This means that you don't want people to tell you what to think.

With several of your posts, you've made it pretty clear that you have no idea how to think.
This is something I can't teach you about.

We who follow Jesus are learning how to think, and not just what to think.

So, you have to decide what matters more to you.

What to think, or how to think.

The only way to know how to think is to do what Jesus said.

This will give you the empirical evidence you claim to want.

Not until you prove anything you say is true. And since you cannot succinctly and directly answer the OP I do not see that happening any time soon.

This just shows that you don't actually want to know how to think.

They all claim to be books about God. Billions swear they are true. None can be empirically proven. In that way they are the same.

You really need to read them all, and decide for yourself.
Because this statement demonstrates that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Why do you think books with Jesus stories are true?

Easy.
I've learned how to think.
I did this by doing what Jesus said.

Joh 14:23 WEB Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

You seem to think if I cannot prove the Koran has a Jesus story then it is false.

Nope.
I'm explicitly saying that you can do what Jesus said and know YHVH, but if you do what the Quran says, you won't be able to know YHVH.

YHVH and Allah are not the same person.

You have yet to explain why you decided the Jesus story was true.

Actually I have.
You keep telling me that you don't want to know how to think because you don't want to do what Jesus said. Yet you continue to argue that you only accept empirical evidence.
This means that you have to do what Jesus said to know the truth.

And that was the OP.

Pretty pathetic op.
All fluff and no substance.

My excuse is that you, a follower of Christ, cannot explain why anyone should believe The Bible beyond telling me to 'get ff my duff!' or 'step up and take charge!' like a bad 1980s sitcom coach.

Your excuse is that you have no idea what you're talking about and don't grasp the terms you keep using.

Empirical evidence requires that you do what Jesus said.

You just want people to tell you what to think and then claim that you can intellectually deduce that they are telling you the truth.

Thank you - always a pleasure.

PS: Jesus is discussed as a holy man in the Koran over 50 times. I do not know if that helps.

I'm already aware of this.

It's obviously not helping you at all.

The bible discusses Jesus, solely.

So, my question becomes....
Instead of reading books which Jesus is only a sideline, why not read the book in which he is the main character?


You're the one who keeps saying that you only accept empirical evidence.
Get off your derriere and learn what Jesus is saying and then do it.

Joh 14:23 WEB Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

 

[Lion IRC]

You seem to be saying The Bible is true because The Bible claims to speak for God..

That's the exact opposite of what I said.
ffs Did you even read what I wrote?

 

[Furion]

Me either.

You just like fantasy threads and ask people.

I did not ask that. I asked you to explain why you believe one book over the others. You said you cannot - or will not - explain that.
.

No you di'int. You asked this:

how would you go about figuring out which, if any, to believe?

I said I wouldn't, you got butthurt.

I understand God just fine. I've read The Bible and I know his nature and rules.

Ya no. You've not evidenced you have even a rudimental understanding yet.

My only pre-supposition is that I ask anyone who claims to have supernatural knowledge to prove it. And that seems pretty dang logical.

You can't even evidence you understand so it's a failed presupposition.

 

[Lighthearted Atheist]

If God gave you the ability to know....you would know.

So anyone who agrees with you has the ability to know and anyone who disagrees does not. But we have no way to prove if you or I have the ability to know - or if that ability even exists. You just believe it on faith. That about right?

Thank you.

 

[Lighthearted Atheist]

Do what Jesus said.

Joh 14:23 WEB Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

This is not an experiment. I do not think you understand science as well as you think you do.

It is as I thought - you have no experiment - just Jesus quotes and a 'get off yer duff' disposition.

Thank you. You have no reason for believing The Bible over the other religious books. You just do. The rest is just random, unverifiable Bible quotes and vague demands to do things you cannot articulate.

Thanks.

 

[Lighthearted Atheist]

That's the exact opposite of what I said.
ffs Did you even read what I wrote?

I did. I repeat back to you to try to understand. Please correct me.

Why do you believe The Bible is from God but the Koran is not?

 

[Lighthearted Atheist]

You just like fantasy threads and ask people.

If you do not like thought experiments then why are you posting? Just to deride? OK.

I understand that you cannot explain why anyone should trust the Bible is from God and the Koran is not. You just believe it for...reasons.

Thank you.

 

[Furion]

If you do not like thought experiments then why are you posting? Just to deride? OK.

I gave you my thoughts, and you decided to deride.

I said I wouldn't to your question, but you couldn't leave it there, you had to get your animosity on.

I'll say it again:

How would you go about figuring out which, if any, to believe?

I wouldn't.