Thoughts on Determinism

Alive

Active member
Anyway, just a couple of thoughts that may be a different way of looking at what is referred to as 'strict determinism'--which is said by some that champion 'free will' as an agent of man for a cause of salvation, to be doctrinal error. In other words, that God does not strictly determine an individual's salvation--via 'election'--that salvation is determined by the choice and will of an individual.

I want to go back to a beginning and look at this.

In order for this to work, a starting condition must have existed and that is that Adam and Eve in the garden before the fall did indeed have a free will. A will free Godward and not bound or encumbered by 'sin'. Adam was not made 'corrupt', but he was made 'corruptible'. I have said a bunch there in order to make two simple points.

1. What 'determined' Adam's future was his choice to break God's commandment to refrain from eating of that tree. The bad one. Secondarily to that choice that 'determined strictly' his future is that that future included 'death' rather than 'eternal Life' represented by the other tree, which is Christ.

2. God 'determined' to 'SAVE' a portion of Adam's fallen race for Himself through the Slain Lamb before any of this started.

In this scenario, we have two instances of a 'strict determinism'.

God did not strictly determine that Adam would choose as he did--Adam's choice did that. Adam lost that 'free will' which had become fully sinful--dead in sin. Dead Godward. A thing that is dead cannot be partially dead and partially alive. This is where we need God's help to understand just how sinful sin is. How utterly dark sin is and cannot mix with the Light--with God.

Knowing this, we can look at how it was necessary that God, now--had to 'strictly determine' by His will to rescue some from that awful state--by the Redeeming work of Jesus Christ--who paid in full the wages of that sin--so that its result which is death does no longer determine fate. Rather Christ's Righteousness and Life is, by God's determination, imputed to His elect.


There is a whole lot in between the lines of the above related to the OP, but I thought it might be helpful to actually think about 'determination' and how it must relate in some form to the doctrinal positions we hold.

Whether as a noun or verb type.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Anyway, just a couple of thoughts that may be a different way of looking at what is referred to as 'strict determinism'--which is said by some that champion 'free will' as an agent of man for a cause of salvation, to be doctrinal error. In other words, that God does not strictly determine an individual's salvation--via 'election'--that salvation is determined by the choice and will of an individual.

I want to go back to a beginning and look at this.

In order for this to work, a starting condition must have existed and that is that Adam and Eve in the garden before the fall did indeed have a free will. A will free Godward and not bound or encumbered by 'sin'. Adam was not made 'corrupt', but he was made 'corruptible'. I have said a bunch there in order to make two simple points.

1. What 'determined' Adam's future was his choice to break God's commandment to refrain from eating of that tree. The bad one. Secondarily to that choice that 'determined strictly' his future is that that future included 'death' rather than 'eternal Life' represented by the other tree, which is Christ.

2. God 'determined' to 'SAVE' a portion of Adam's fallen race for Himself through the Slain Lamb before any of this started.

In this scenario, we have two instances of a 'strict determinism'.

God did not strictly determine that Adam would choose as he did--Adam's choice did that. Adam lost that 'free will' which had become fully sinful--dead in sin. Dead Godward. A thing that is dead cannot be partially dead and partially alive. This is where we need God's help to understand just how sinful sin is. How utterly dark sin is and cannot mix with the Light--with God.

Knowing this, we can look at how it was necessary that God, now--had to 'strictly determine' by His will to rescue some from that awful state--by the Redeeming work of Jesus Christ--who paid in full the wages of that sin--so that its result which is death does no longer determine fate. Rather Christ's Righteousness and Life is, by God's determination, imputed to His elect.


There is a whole lot in between the lines of the above related to the OP, but I thought it might be helpful to actually think about 'determination' and how it must relate in some form to the doctrinal positions we hold.

Whether as a noun or verb type.
I would say that out of all the people that Pelagianism could have ever applied to; are Adam and Eve...
 
G

guest1

Guest
I once believed in the false teachings of determinism which is nothing short of fatalism. But scripture does not teach such a doctrine, it declares man cooperates with God in salvation and sanctification and that God in His great love made man in his own image with the ability to love Him freely just as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit love freely. So there is no meticulous divine deterministic god in the bible. That is just a augistinian/calvin/luther caricature of the real Living God.

Yours Truly, Team Truth !

hope this helps !!!
 

Alive

Active member
I once believed in the false teachings of determinism which is nothing short of fatalism. But scripture does not teach such a doctrine, it declares man cooperates with God in salvation and sanctification and that God in His great love made man in his own image with the ability to love Him freely just as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit love freely. So there is no meticulous divine deterministic god in the bible. That is just a augistinian/calvin/luther caricature of the real Living God.

Yours Truly, Team Truth !

hope this helps !!!
As suggested in the OP--it seems to me important to grasp how utterly fallen is Adam.
I have been thinking much lately about John 15:5 and that word nothing--no thing.
This is an absolute.
This is all very much different than what Miracle Max said when declaring that Wesley was only "mostly dead".

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches; the one who remains in Me, and I in him bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

Can somebody show me with scripture where the unregenerated are only 'partly dead'?
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
I once believed in the false teachings of determinism which is nothing short of fatalism. But scripture does not teach such a doctrine, it declares man cooperates with God in salvation

Submits.

and sanctification and that God in His great love made man in his own image with the ability to love Him freely just as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit love freely.
So there is no meticulous divine deterministic god in the bible. That is just a augistinian/calvin/luther caricature of the real Living God.

It is a feeble mind that supposes God would need to control every event in order to get the final results He wants. That is what weak fearful worldly men do.

He is more than capable of cleaning up any mess humans might create..

Yours Truly, Team Truth !

hope this helps !!!
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
As suggested in the OP--it seems to me important to grasp how utterly fallen is Adam.
I have been thinking much lately about John 15:5 and that word nothing--no thing.
This is an absolute.
This is all very much different than what Miracle Max said when declaring that Wesley was only "mostly dead".

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches; the one who remains in Me, and I in him bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

Can somebody show me with scripture where the unregenerated are only 'partly dead'?
As an active Member, you are still kind of new here; unless you are a former Member with a new Profile. I really like your Verse; but let me tell you what will happen to it. It will be ignored by those who aren't Compatibalists. You should get used to this now. Keep up the good work. Everyone says the other side rejects their Pretexts; but that's never true for Compatibalists; they agree with All Scripture...
 

Alive

Active member
As an active Member, you are still kind of new here; unless you are a former Member with a new Profile. I really like your Verse; but let me tell you what will happen to it. It will be ignored by those who aren't Compatibalists. You should get used to this now. Keep up the good work. Everyone says the other side rejects their Pretexts; but that's never true for Compatibalists; they agree with All Scripture...
I am a new member and have never been here under a different name.
I typically post for those who are neither the choir or free willers, but for those who may be in the process of working things out. For myself, I try to hold my doctrinal positions loosely and thereby leaving room for the Holy Spirit to correct and or add to what i currently hold to be true.
To repeat, I arrived at my conclusions entirely apart from Calvin or Arminius. I have read my bible.
:)
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
I am a new member and have never been here under a different name.
I typically post for those who are neither the choir or free willers, but for those who may be in the process of working things out. For myself, I try to hold my doctrinal positions loosely and thereby leaving room for the Holy Spirit to correct and or add to what i currently hold to be true.

Wise. True believers are taught by the Spirit of God. Those who are not open to changing their beliefs are not disciples of Christ. A disciple of Christ is by definition someone open to learning. But you will find many who refuse.

To repeat, I arrived at my conclusions entirely apart from Calvin or Arminius. I have read my bible.
:)
 

Alive

Active member
Wise. True believers are taught by the Spirit of God. Those who are not open to changing their beliefs are not disciples of Christ. A disciple of Christ is by definition someone open to learning. But you will find many who refuse.
It has been my experience that there are a great many believers that have doctrinal positions based on whatever they have been taught under the steeple and that do not question those things--so in a sense, I can agree with your statement. This has been true since the beginning or nearly so in the institutional bodies. It happened during the Reformation several times as well as within the Roman sphere.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
It has been my experience that there are a great many believers that have doctrinal positions based on whatever they have been taught under the steeple and that do not question those things--so in a sense, I can agree with your statement. This has been true since the beginning or nearly so in the institutional bodies. It happened during the Reformation several times as well as within the Roman sphere.

Most spend all their efforts protecting and polishing their creedal idol and learn nothing at all from God Himself who teaches His own children directly and clearly.
 

Alive

Active member
Most spend all their efforts protecting and polishing their creedal idol and learn nothing at all from God Himself who teaches His own children directly and clearly.
We are getting off the topic, but again, I agree--but not as harshly in that it is not necessarily a willful thing.
I like to refer to those things as 'high towers'. High towers do not come down easily, when they are either too dear or are integral to the individual's definition of self. That is one of the detrimental aspects of 'labels'. They are much too confining and the Holy Spirit works on freer ground.
 
G

guest1

Guest
I am a new member and have never been here under a different name.
I typically post for those who are neither the choir or free willers, but for those who may be in the process of working things out. For myself, I try to hold my doctrinal positions loosely and thereby leaving room for the Holy Spirit to correct and or add to what i currently hold to be true.
To repeat, I arrived at my conclusions entirely apart from Calvin or Arminius. I have read my bible.
:)
Great philosophy!
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
We are getting off the topic, but again, I agree--but not as harshly in that it is not necessarily a willful thing.
I like to refer to those things as 'high towers'. High towers do not come down easily, when they are either too dear or are integral to the individual's definition of self. That is one of the detrimental aspects of 'labels'. They are much too confining and the Holy Spirit works on freer ground.
He wants to get you off topic...
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I once believed in the false teachings of determinism which is nothing short of fatalism. But scripture does not teach such a doctrine, it declares man cooperates with God in salvation and sanctification and that God in His great love made man in his own image with the ability to love Him freely just as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit love freely. So there is no meticulous divine deterministic god in the bible. That is just a augistinian/calvin/luther caricature of the real Living God.

Yours Truly, Team Truth !

hope this helps !!!

Nobody cares.

You offer ZERO Scripture that determinism is false.
You offer ZERO Scripture that your beliefs are true.

You simply offer repetitive worthless rhetoric against Calvinism to try to brainwash people against it.

"Hope this helps !!!"
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
We are getting off the topic,

Yes.

but again, I agree--but not as harshly in that it is not necessarily a willful thing.

It is usually more willful that it appears.

I like to refer to those things as 'high towers'. High towers do not come down easily, when they are either too dear or are integral to the individual's definition of self. That is one of the detrimental aspects of 'labels'. They are much too confining and the Holy Spirit works on freer ground.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Nobody cares.

You would be wrong again.

You offer ZERO Scripture that determinism is false.

We all know you would say this in response to a mountain of evidence provided to you.

So there's no point in hoping that you are being convincing with that statement.

You offer ZERO Scripture that your beliefs are true.

You simply offer repetitive worthless rhetoric against Calvinism to try to brainwash people against it.

"Hope this helps !!!"
 

CrowCross

Super Member
Can somebody show me with scripture where the unregenerated are only 'partly dead'?
Typically they follow this sort of theology presented in this analogy:
People can be seen as individuals in the middle of a large lake....drowning. About to go under for the last time....All they need to do to be saved is freely grab onto the life preserver that has been thrown out to them and get pulled to shore.

In reality...the people in the lake are not on the surface about to drown. Rather, they are laying on the bottom of the lake...dead. They are dead and can't save themselves. What has to happen? God has to jump into the lake, grab you and drag you to shore and fill you with life.
 
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