Thoughts on Determinism

God is the only reference point that matters in a theological discussion.

Adam’s will was not free from God’s determined circumstances at any point before or after the fall.

calvinism 101- assumptions this is just another unbiblical philosophical argument.
 
or deceived now
What makes you think that you're not, since you say that you were, without realising it...for decades?

I was deceived for a few months, after becoming born again, primarily because all around me were proclaiming free will and I thought that they must know better than I, since I was a brand new Christian, without a Christian upbringing.

When I started to work in a Christian bookshop, one of the assistants challenged me (he went to an independent Baptist church, with a pastor who believed in the doctrines of grace). I tried hard to defend freewillism; but, to my great frustration, even though I could defeat him in debate (he was not very intelligent, but he was humble and caring), I could see through my own arguments. I started to read books, to support freewill, but they frustrated me even more, because I could see through them as well. I read one booklet, by John R. Rice, entitled "Why I Disagree with all Five Points of Hypercalvinism", and I found it to be riddled with proof-texting and rationalisations (the title itself should have told me it was no good - the five points are not Hypercalvinism). The more I read, the more my position turned into a house of cards.

The breath of wind that blew the house down, was when I heard a sermon by a Church of Scotland preacher, who said that no-one could say that his will or decision had made the difference between being saved, or not, because that would be boasting, and that's excluded. I couldn't get that out of my mind.

Being stubborn, I persisted in defending free will, in spite of the lack of evidence (and very strong evidence to the contrary), until one day, when I was satirising TULIP, in front of the Christian bookshop owners, an overwhelming conviction that I was sinning grievously suddenly descended upon me. I stopped in mid sentence, literally putting my hand over my mouth. They wanted me to continue, but I said that I was convicted about it and had to stop. I was trembling, the conviction was so strong.

I now KNOW, beyond all doubt, that TULIP is true and those who oppose it, or parts of it, are in error.
 
That is an interesting contribution and worth thinking about.
It seems you are circling back to a 'strict determinism', which I have no problem with.
Do you think Adam's free will was different before the fall?
Actually, no, I was not addressing strict determinism.

This is what I was referring to.

Mark 7:20-23 (KJV)
20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Out of a corrupt heart, proceed corrupt thoughts, words and deeds.

It is my guess that Adam, knowing that to eat of the forbidden fruit was rebellion and would lead to his death, nevertheless did not want to be separated from his wife and so put her above God, in that moment becoming an idolater. From that idolatrous heart proceeded his rebellious act.

I know that I can't prove the above, but I have proved that it's from heart that sins come, and, since we only ever do what we want to do, his heart already had an evil desire, before he ate of the forbidden fruit.

P.S. I think that Adam's will was the same as ours, in the sense that it was bound by his nature. A nature without any sin, would not sin; therefore, his nature became corrupt, before he ate the forbidden fruit.
 
Actually, no, I was not addressing strict determinism.

This is what I was referring to.

Mark 7:20-23 (KJV)
20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Out of a corrupt heart, proceed corrupt thoughts, words and deeds.

It is my guess that Adam, knowing that to eat of the forbidden fruit was rebellion and would lead to his death, nevertheless did not want to be separated from his wife and so put her above God, in that moment becoming an idolater. From that idolatrous heart proceeded his rebellious act.

I know that I can't prove the above, but I have proved that it's from heart that sins come, and, since we only ever do what we want to do, his heart already had an evil desire, before he ate of the forbidden fruit.

P.S. I think that Adam's will was the same as ours, in the sense that it was bound by his nature. A nature without any sin, would not sin; therefore, his nature became corrupt, before he ate the forbidden fruit.
Give me a few minutes, David.
:)
Ok--first thank you for an excellent and thought provoking response. Iron sharpens iron and all.
At first consideration, I thought that it doesn't really matter and what you are writing falls into the 'chicken/egg or cart/horse' catagory. Then while making a sammich, a couple things occurred to me.
1. Jesus was speaking to and about unregenerate mean, but that the principle still applies to us.
2. Then I thought about something @Josheb articulated some time back that God made Adam corruptible, but not corrupt. I believe that is a true statement. At some point before the fall, Adam was not corrupt and I believe that his will was free for good or evil and yet he may have been ignorant of evil.
3. The it occurred to me what the Lord said to him: Gen. 2:17 (NAS20S) but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for on the day that you eat from it you will certainly die.”

Perhaps Adam remained uncorrupted and still alive untill that moment when he ate?
 
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no mans free will is the same pre/post fall. He has the freedom to choose to obey God or disobey. No coercion. That free will is the image of God in man. God is a free moral agent and so is man who is made in His image.
God's will is bound to his nature (e.g. he CANNOT lie). Man's will is similarly bound to his nature. People with a sinful nature can only sin (in God's sight) even if what they do is sometimes good in man's sight.
 
God's will is bound to his nature (e.g. he CANNOT lie). Man's will is similarly bound to his nature. People with a sinful nature can only sin (in God's sight) even if what they do is sometimes good in man's sight.
there is no " sin nature " that is an NIV addition to scripture.

next
 
there is no " sin nature " that is an NIV addition to scripture.

next
There is no sinful nature ... in a born again Christian; but there certainly is, in an unbeliever. The Bible does not need to use those exact words for it to be true (call it "heart", if you like, I don't mind).

You are correct that the NIV mistranslates the Greek word for "flesh" sometimes, and that flesh is not a nature; but that is a separate issue.
 
Give me a few minutes, David.
:)
Ok--first thank you for an excellent and thought provoking response. Iron sharpens iron and all.
At first consideration, I thought that it doesn't really matter and what you are writing falls into the 'chicken/egg or cart/horse' catagory. Then while making a sammich, a couple things occurred to me.
1. Jesus was speaking to and about unregenerate mean, but that the principle still applies to us.
2. Then I thought about something @Josheb articulated some time back that God made Adam corruptible, but not corrupt. I believe that is a true statement. At some point before the fall, Adam was not corrupt and I believe that his will was free for good or evil and yet he may have been ignorant of evil.
3. The it occurred to me what the Lord said to him: Gen. 2:17 (NAS20S) but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for on the day that you eat from it you will certainly die.”

Perhaps Adam remained uncorrupted and still alive untill that moment when he ate?
You mean that Adam sinned, without first having a sinful desire to sin? Is it not desire that always leads to action?

What would lead Adam to sin, knowing that that sin would be against God, with whom he had fellowship, and would lead to his death? He was not deceived, so we can rule that out.

Did Adam desire to eat the forbidden fruit, the moment before he actually ate it?

Adam knew Good (he knew God, who is the epitome of good), but he was almost entirely free from knowledge of evil, except for one thing: he knew that it was evil to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
 
You mean that Adam sinned, without first having a sinful desire to sin? Is it not desire that always leads to action?
In the final analysis, I do not think we can know how it all worked out. We do have some hints, so to speak.
The reason I say that is I do not think we can even imagine what Adam's state was like before the fall.
We are looking through the lense of one's who still have 'flesh' that has been tainted by sin.

At this point in time, I don't think I can lay it out any better than I have in my previous post.
 
In the final analysis, I do not think we can know how it all worked out. We do have some hints, so to speak.
The reason I say that is I do not think we can even imagine what Adam's state was like before the fall.
We are looking through the lense of one's who still have 'flesh' that has been tainted by sin.

At this point in time, I don't think I can lay it out any better than I have in my previous post.
There has to be brain activity, in order to lead to action. The brain activity comes first; this is how humans function. There is a desire to do something, then the brain transfers instructions to the relevant part of the body, to attempt to bring that desire to pass. This is irrespective of sin.
 
There has to be brain activity, in order to lead to action. The brain activity comes first; this is how humans function. There is a desire to do something, then the brain transfers instructions to the relevant part of the body, to attempt to bring that desire to pass. This is irrespective of sin.
Well yes--we can assume this is accurate, but it doesn't really close the deal on the question at hand.
 
Well yes--we can assume this is accurate, but it doesn't really close the deal on the question at hand.
How so? I said that a sinful desire led Adam to commit a sinful act. He knew that eating the forbidden fruit was sinful: sinful desire, brain tells hand to take fruit and mouth to eat.
 
In the final analysis, I do not think we can know how it all worked out. We do have some hints, so to speak.
The reason I say that is I do not think we can even imagine what Adam's state was like before the fall.
We are looking through the lense of one's who still have 'flesh' that has been tainted by sin.

At this point in time, I don't think I can lay it out any better than I have in my previous post.

Adam was peccable. Jesus Christ is Impeccable.

Creation = peccable. Nothing in creation is impeccable.
 
How so? I said that a sinful desire led Adam to commit a sinful act. He knew that eating the forbidden fruit was sinful: sinful desire, brain tells hand to take fruit and mouth to eat.
Because God after finishing His Creation, including Adam; declared it all to be good and that must include the reality that Adam was made in such a way to 'choose'. That ability to make that bad choice, was also 'good'.
 
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