Thoughts on Determinism

Reformedguy

Well-known member
You clearly were replying to a question about the rules

and your reply assumes that context

Man up and come clean
Never mentioned any rules. Never claimed it was a rule of these discussion forums.

Your simply being dishonest AGAIN.

Such a shame.
 

Alive

Active member
Woah! Assumption alert!

From where do you get that uncorrupted Adam (without sin and, therefore, without sinful desires) was able to choose evil, without corrupting himself by desiring it first?

And the second assumption is based on the first - that the supposed ability to rebel against God, from an uncorrupt nature that had no sin, was very good.

Which comes first: desire or action?
@David1701
I have been thinking about this further and am at an impasse in my thinking as to some og my comments post OP.
:)
I think that what you are saying is that there may have been in some way an 'inclination' to sin built into Adam as well as his corruptibility.

God is sovereign--He is all powerful in that no thing--no created thing can over power Him and His will.

So He constructed the universe in such a way that evil could exist, but He did so for a 'good' reason.

Romans 8:28 and Eph 2:5-7

I am studying, among other things, evil and what men before us did while attempting to explain how a perfect God could allow evil and what has resulted from it. Thinking about these things has been edifying.
 

David1701

Well-known member
@David1701
I have been thinking about this further and am at an impasse in my thinking as to some og my comments post OP.
:)
I think that what you are saying is that there may have been in some way an 'inclination' to sin built into Adam as well as his corruptibility.
Then you think wrongly. Corruptibility obviously includes the changes that corruption would produce in the person's desires. There is no need at all to start out with any inclination to sin, built in to Adam.

God is sovereign--He is all powerful in that no thing--no created thing can over power Him and His will.

So He constructed the universe in such a way that evil could exist, but He did so for a 'good' reason.

Romans 8:28 and Eph 2:5-7

I am studying, among other things, evil and what men before us did while attempting to explain how a perfect God could allow evil and what has resulted from it. Thinking about these things has been edifying.
God did not construct the universe in such a way that evil merely could exist (what would such a phrase even mean, given God's omniscience and omnipotence?); but in a way in which it would exist.
 

Alive

Active member
Then you think wrongly. Corruptibility obviously includes the changes that corruption would produce in the person's desires. There is no need at all to start out with any inclination to sin, built in to Adam.
OK---that is good, then.
God did not construct the universe in such a way that evil merely could exist (what would such a phrase even mean, given God's omniscience and omnipotence?); but in a way in which it would exist.
Perhaps a bad choice of words, on my part.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Because God after finishing His Creation, including Adam; declared it all to be good and that must include the reality that Adam was made in such a way to 'choose'. That ability to make that bad choice, was also 'good'.
I wouldn't say that the ability to make a Bad Choice is something God declared to be Good. God told Moses, 'Hey, lets kill Israel and make a People from you'. Moses said, 'Far be it from you to break your Promise'. I'm not saying that God would renig, but he put the Offer on the table; and it would have been a Bad Choice...
 

Alive

Active member
I think this comes down to an area that we are simply incapable of understanding and that God wills it this way--at least for now.
I am satisfied with not fully understanding. I am satisfied, that my mind isn't capable of knowing His ways---they are past finding out.
There are things that are both true at the same time and yet appear to contradict. Because we can't reconcile them, doesn't change that. Indeed, we should not attempt to negate what scripture says, but be content with a lack of additional explanation in scripture.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I think this comes down to an area that we are simply incapable of understanding and that God wills it this way--at least for now.
I am satisfied with not fully understanding. I am satisfied, that my mind isn't capable of knowing His ways---they are past finding out.
There are things that are both true at the same time and yet appear to contradict. Because we can't reconcile them, doesn't change that. Indeed, we should not attempt to negate what scripture says, but be content with a lack of additional explanation in scripture.
Then you are far ahead of the rest of us brother...
 

Alive

Active member
Then you are far ahead of the rest of us brother...
I doubt that. I have given much thought to some things over the last couple years. Things that frankly, I just accepted because they are what I see is plain in scripture. Since reading forums, I have heard arguments and counter arguments, that I haven't dealt with in much detail. I have been challenged to being able to better articulate those things that I have come to believe and how I came to believe them.
I spent many years 'preaching to the choir'--so to speak.

After all of the years, I continue to realize how little I know.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I doubt that. I have given much thought to some things over the last couple years. Things that frankly, I just accepted because they are what I see is plain in scripture. Since reading forums, I have heard arguments and counter arguments, that I haven't dealt with in much detail. I have been challenged to being able to better articulate those things that I have come to believe and how I came to believe them.
I spent many years 'preaching to the choir'--so to speak.

After all of the years, I continue to realize how little I know.
You are nearing 'Sage Stage'. Saint Paul said he determined to know only Christ and him Crucifed...

You are almost ready...
 

Alive

Active member
You are nearing 'Sage Stage'. Saint Paul said he determined to know only Christ and him Crucifed...

You are almost ready...
And that my brother is where I have set my tent pegs for a long time...hence my 'Salvation is Relocation' message.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
And that my brother is where I have set my tent pegs for a long time...hence my 'Salvation is Relocation' message.
Nail in a Holy place - by ReverendRV

Ezra 9:8 KJV
; And now for a little space Grace hath been shewed from the LORD our God, to leave us a remnant to escape, and to give us a nail in his Holy place, that our God may lighten our eyes, and give us a little reviving in our bondage.

The LORD didn’t set His love on Israel or choose them because they were more in number than any other people, but because the LORD loved them; and because He would keep the oath that He swore to their fathers. Despite their many sins against God, the LORD continued to show them Mercy. They committed Idolatry by making up gods to suit themselves, just like you and I have done. When we say something like, 'To me, God would never send someone to Hell', you have made a god to suit yourself; you’re an Idolater. ~ Ezra taught Israel about the Grace of God. Grace is “Unmerited Favor” given to those who wanted to receive mercy from God and escape the penalty due for their Sin. ~ The Baptist Theologian John Gill commented on what Ezra says here; "and to give us a nail in his holy place; meaning a fixed settlement in the land of Judea, the Holy land the Lord had chosen, and in the temple, the Holy place sacred to his worship"…

The nail that is spoken of is a tent peg that was used to secure the tents of a nomadic people to the ground. Although this is speaking of tent spikes, their dwellings are to be 'a fixed settlement' and they would no longer have to move. These tent spikes would now be put into solid rock and could not be removed. ~ Jesus said for us to build our Hope and Faith on the solid rock, and this rock is Jesus himself! Jesus said, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: 'The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone". Build your faith on Jesus and your faith will be sound because Jesus is sound. If you do not do this you are in danger of judgment because Jesus also said, "And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder". Have you ever Coveted something that you shouldn’t have? Then you are in God’s mortar awaiting his everlasting pestle. Guilty Sinners are condemned to Hell forever…

Grace appeared to us in the form of another nail in another Holy place; the nails that were driven through the body of Jesus on the cross. Ezra said that the nail was driven in a Holy place; John Gill said it was 'Holy land the Lord had chosen, and in the temple, the Holy place sacred to his worship'. Jesus was chosen by God! Jesus said that Herod’s Temple would be destroyed, but that he would raise it in three days! Jesus was speaking of raising his body when he said the temple would be raised, and this was referring to his Resurrection. The believer’s body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, a Holy place sacred for his worship. You must repent of your Sins and trust in the sacrifice that Jesus made so that ‘if you believe’, you can be found in the fixed settlement of Heaven with Christ and God. We are saved by the Grace of God through the gift of Faith, apart from meritorious Works. Repent, Confess Jesus as your risen Lord; and believe!

John 1:14 YLT; And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.
 

fltom

Well-known member
Then you think wrongly. Corruptibility obviously includes the changes that corruption would produce in the person's desires. There is no need at all to start out with any inclination to sin, built in to Adam.


God did not construct the universe in such a way that evil merely could exist (what would such a phrase even mean, given God's omniscience and omnipotence?); but in a way in which it would exist.
Are you saying God planned for and determined sin?
 
Top