Three Months...

Tallen

Well-known member
Where did I say anything is wrong about liturgy?
Where did I say that you said something was wrong?

You could say, "nothing", "something things", "everything" or million other things.

BTW, it's Tb's question that insinuates some is wrong. 😉
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
What's wrong with a liturgy?
Trying to find out what’s right with a liturgy. Or biblical. I do see limited versions in the OT.

Liturgy works great for the nightly news. Same words read by different talking heads on every single outlet on the same day at the same time. Does great for homogeneity and control.

How does it compare to 1 Corinthians 14?
 

Tallen

Well-known member
Trying to find out what’s right with a liturgy. Or biblical. I do see limited versions in the OT.

Liturgy works great for the nightly news. Same words read by different talking heads on every single outlet on the same day at the same time. Does great for homogeneity and control.

How does it compare to 1 Corinthians 14?
Define liturgy. To me it is a defined corporate worship. Seems to me there are several kinds..., like baptism, communion, deep worship, etc. Plenty of scripture examples.
 

Tallen

Well-known member
Define liturgy. To me it is a defined corporate worship. Seems to me there are several kinds..., like baptism, communion, deep worship, etc. Plenty of scripture examples.
Meant to say, defined corporate and/or individual worship.
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
Agree 90%. They didn't die, though. Which means the dry bones aren't theirs. But there's a larger problem: if Pete's on track, then they renamed (or unnamed) their movement and continue to sell healing snake oil to the blind.
BUT - Heb 11:1, Rom 10:17, and Mark 11:22-24 are still in the Bible, last time I looked - everything else, after all, is nothing more than "Just theology". ALL God's Chilluns gots "Theology".
 

BlessedAnomaly

Well-known member
Where did I say that you said something was wrong?
You implied it by asking what was wrong with it. Glad we agree that I didn't.

You could say, "nothing", "something things", "everything" or million other things.
Nothing in and of itself. If you wallow in it and forget the power of the Word then....

BTW, it's Tb's question that insinuates some is wrong. 😉
Yes, but you quoted both of us and then made the statement. Thus the question -- ipso facto, ex post facto, and by the way -- is to both of us? :D
 

Tallen

Well-known member
BUT - Heb 11:1, Rom 10:17, and Mark 11:22-24 are still in the Bible, last time I looked - everything else, after all, is nothing more than "Just theology". ALL God's Chilluns gots "Theology".
Everything else in the bible is just theology? 😲
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
Ah, but the last time I checked WoF did not have copyright over Mark 11:22-24. They just misuse it the most.
But it Says what it says, and when applied properly yields the promised results. The single most significant FACT about "Word of FAITH" - is that there's no "Faith" in it, just methods beliefs, and presumptions.
 

BlessedAnomaly

Well-known member
But it Says what it says, and when applied properly yields the promised results. The single most significant FACT about "Word of FAITH" - is that there's no "Faith" in it, just methods beliefs, and presumptions.
When did you become an expert on "applied properly?" Just a little snark when I ask: how many heart attacks has it been? And the fact that death has not resulted is not an answer since Psalm 91 says that that "No harm will overtake you; no illness will come near your home." Just snark, I have my own "gee, it didn't work" story.

What "promised results?" This'll be interesting. I'm told by others that my wife's "healing" came after she died. No more cancer! Hoorah!

(again: all snark. Answer with whatever blade you'd like.)
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
When did you become an expert on "applied properly?" Just a little snark when I ask: how many heart attacks has it been? And the fact that death has not resulted is not an answer since Psalm 91 says that that "No harm will overtake you; no illness will come near your home." Just snark, I have my own "gee, it didn't work" story.

What "promised results?" This'll be interesting. I'm told by others that my wife's "healing" came after she died. No more cancer! Hoorah!

(again: all snark. Answer with whatever blade you'd like.)
The language says it all - Mark 11:23: "and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass;" which is Heb 11:1 in a nutshell.

Toxic Word of Faith interprets that to say: "and shall pretend to not doubt in his heart (even though there's doubt), but shall pretend to believe (when he doesn't REALLY believe) that those things which he saith shall come to pass; and keep up that pretense long enough, and consistently enough to impress God with his "sincerity" - then he'll get what he wants. - etc.

I've had 13 heart attacks (two open hearts, 21 stents, a Rotoblator procedure up my "widow maker", and I'm deep into congestive heart failure).

And the simple FACT is that over the last 30 years, I've NEVER had any spiritual indication that God has any intention of healing my Heart issues. Consequently, playing the WoF "FAITH PRETENSE GAME" when there IS NO "FAITH" would be foolish.

So I've never had a "It doesn't work" story at all. I KNOW what the Scriptures say. It's been 59 years, and it's always "Worked just fine" - still is.

AS I've said before, the cardios gave me till 2004 - so the joke's on them, and that God's hand has been there through the decades making things O.K. and keeping me it the RIGHT PLACE at the RIGHT TIME is by simple observation. I'd have to be BLIND not to see it.

What I DO have FAITH (heb 11:1) about as the result of God's WORD to me (Rom 10:17) is that He's got me in HIS HAND, and when I pass on, probably in the near future, I've a HOME in my REAL HOME when the endless pain and drudgery of this physical life is over. And the rest can take care of itself.
 

BlessedAnomaly

Well-known member
The language says it all
That is why we have a diverse set of denominations, movements and cults. Because the language is sooooo definite. 😂

- Mark 11:23: "and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass;" which is Heb 11:1 in a nutshell.
Makes me wonder where my wife went wrong, since she did this, the forgiving in the next verses, and the waiting. Yes, she did.

Toxic Word of Faith interprets that to say: "and shall pretend to not doubt in his heart (even though there's doubt), but shall pretend to believe (when he doesn't REALLY believe) that those things which he saith shall come to pass; and keep up that pretense long enough, and consistently enough to impress God with his "sincerity" - then he'll get what he wants. - etc.
Toxic WoF doesn't think this. At least they don't think they do. Are you saying that nobody can actually "not doubt"?

I've had 13 heart attacks (two open hearts, 21 stents, a Rotoblator procedure up my "widow maker", and I'm deep into congestive heart failure).
21 stents?? Do you have any fleshy veins in your body anymore?

And the simple FACT is that over the last 30 years, I've NEVER had any spiritual indication that God has any intention of healing my Heart issues. Consequently, playing the WoF "FAITH PRETENSE GAME" when there IS NO "FAITH" would be foolish.
And the verse for "spiritual indication" is where? The ones that you quoted seem to say that you can just do what they say (as long as you do it seriously, completely and not in toxicity, I guess).

So I've never had a "It doesn't work" story at all. I KNOW what the Scriptures say. It's been 59 years, and it's always "Worked just fine" - still is.
Well, I'm not inclined to disagree at all with this. Scripture certainly works just fine, or God is a liar in many cases. I don't think this latter is the case, so it must be "operator error" that's causing the apparent breakdown. Too bad we weren't really given an operator's manual that was easy to understand and didn't create such division.

AS I've said before, the cardios gave me till 2004 - so the joke's on them, and that God's hand has been there through the decades making things O.K. and keeping me it the RIGHT PLACE at the RIGHT TIME is by simple observation. I'd have to be BLIND not to see it.
I'd tend to agree with this as well. Trust in God and not in self (or Andrew Wommack in any case).

What I DO have FAITH (heb 11:1) about as the result of God's WORD to me (Rom 10:17) is that He's got me in HIS HAND, and when I pass on, probably in the near future, I've a HOME in my REAL HOME when the endless pain and drudgery of this physical life is over. And the rest can take care of itself.
And to this I can only say Amen and Amen. You are not your own, you are in His hand. Amen.
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
Toxic WoF doesn't think this. At least they don't think they do.
BINGO!!! They've been brainwashed to think that if they "Pretend" to have "faith" long enough, and consistently enough And always keep their "professions positive", then the DOUBT they feel, doesn't matter.

That's the difference between "Belief" (Mental assent - which has to be held onto and defended), and Biblical FAITH (God's WORD to you, which holds onto YOU against all attacks).
Are you saying that nobody can actually "not doubt"?
"FAITH" is always revelatory - i.e. God communicating to YOU what He's going to do. OLD Testament examples are plentiful, an are New Testament cases - "FAITH" is listed as one of the Gifts, after all.
21 stents?? Do you have any fleshy veins in your body anymore?
Yup, removed from both legs, and stitched on. (yes my legs swell).
And the verse for "spiritual indication" is where?
What was Abram's "SPiritual Indication", or David's, or Samson's, or Peter at the temple gate when he said "Such AS I HAVE".
 

BlessedAnomaly

Well-known member
Overall, I agree with all of this -- in case it gets lost.

BINGO!!! They've been brainwashed to think that if they "Pretend" to have "faith" long enough, and consistently enough And always keep their "professions positive", then the DOUBT they feel, doesn't matter.
See, I don't think "pretend" is a good way of phrasing it. When you get into "revelatory" below, you got it!

That's the difference between "Belief" (Mental assent - which has to be held onto and defended), and Biblical FAITH (God's WORD to you, which holds onto YOU against all attacks).

"FAITH" is always revelatory - i.e. God communicating to YOU what He's going to do. OLD Testament examples are plentiful, an are New Testament cases - "FAITH" is listed as one of the Gifts, after all.
So, for those reading, check out Hebrews 11:1 (which Bob C keeps stickin' in there). And I hope we're on the same tracks here, Bob.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.​

Two words very, very important here: substance and evidence (other translations may use confidence and conviction).

Substance - the thing is here, you can touch it. That's what faith delivers.
Evidence - the thing is evident, although you can't see it, because God has revealed it to you by giving you the faith in it.

You can't take Mark 11:24 and say "what am I going to apply this to today?" It don't work that way. God's got to give it to you through revelation of faith. All faith comes from God. God measures out faith to you (Rom 12:3). You don't muster faith. God reveals to you what you may have, and he gives you faith to believe for it, even when you cannot see it or think it could happen. But YOU cannot start the process because YOU want or think you need something.

If Bob C doesn't fully agree with this, then remember, I'm right. 😜 👼

Yup, removed from both legs, and stitched on. (yes my legs swell).
Well, compression socks and laser boots and whatever the snake oil salesman says tomorrow -- am I right?

What was Abram's "SPiritual Indication", or David's, or Samson's, or Peter at the temple gate when he said "Such AS I HAVE".
No. You can't point to those for whom it worked and make a theology out of what you THINK happened.

God used Abram. And Abram followed nicely.
God used David. And David, although a bad boy at times, fell in line when necessary.
God used Samson. And Delilah cut his hair. Again, God's use.
God used Peter. And Peter was a mess. He didn't follow. God put a leash on him and pulled him along.
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
Overall, I agree with all of this -- in case it gets lost.


See, I don't think "pretend" is a good way of phrasing it. When you get into "revelatory" below, you got it!


So, for those reading, check out Hebrews 11:1 (which Bob C keeps stickin' in there). And I hope we're on the same tracks here, Bob.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.​

Two words very, very important here: substance and evidence (other translations may use confidence and conviction).

Substance - the thing is here, you can touch it.
Nope, you can't touch it. It's "SUBSTANCE" is there, but it isn't - yet. By FAITH.
If you could "touch it" there'd be no need for faith. i.e. when it's THERE, then "Faith" becomes Sight.
That's what faith delivers.
Evidence - the thing is evident, although you can't see it, because God has revealed it to you by giving you the faith in it.
True.
You can't take Mark 11:24 and say "what am I going to apply this to today?" It don't work that way. God's got to give it to you through revelation of faith. All faith comes from God. God measures out faith to you (Rom 12:3). You don't muster faith. God reveals to you what you may have, and he gives you faith to believe for it, even when you cannot see it or think it could happen. But YOU cannot start the process because YOU want or think you need something.

If Bob C doesn't fully agree with this, then remember, I'm right.
No problem, and since "God always moves first", HE was the one that led you to ask for "it" to begin with,

God used Abram. And Abram followed nicely.
God used David. And David, although a bad boy at times, fell in line when necessary.
God used Samson. And Delilah cut his hair. Again, God's use.
God used Peter. And Peter was a mess. He didn't follow. God put a leash on him and pulled him along.
And HE spoke His WORD to all of 'em, as the Bible records.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
Define liturgy. To me it is a defined corporate worship. Seems to me there are several kinds..., like baptism, communion, deep worship, etc. Plenty of scripture examples.
Anything can be defined as "corporate worship" when a body comes together with the intent to worship. You mentioned what get called "sacraments" among other things.

Liturgy is prescribed and scripted. That's what differentiates a liturgical service from one styled after Paul's example in 1 Corinthians 14.

The dictionary defines liturgy like this: a form or formulary according to which public religious worship, especially Christian worship, is conducted:
"the Church of England liturgy". Episcopalians have a specific script that is followed each week at each service. You know what words get said when, and if you're familiar enough with the particular parish, you can pinpoint the time of day each prayer or confession is uttered. The only thing that changes is the minister's sermon, which is often fashioned after one of the prescribed Bible readings, assigned by a book to that day of the year. Even that is time limited, and woe to that minister if he ever exceeds the weekly allotment.

In the days of Vat II, and in the wake of Dennis Bennett and the Charismatic movement that hit the Episcopalians, the High Council decided to modernize the liturgy from the 1906 Book of Common Prayer to a more modern language. My mother hated it for two reasons: We were no longer miserable sinners in our confessions...and we had to say something to our neighbors when the liturgy required us to "Pass the peace...", where we greeted the folks to our left and to our right with these words: "The Peace of the Lord be always with you..." and responded "And also with you." It was an awkward moment, because none of us knew which was to speak first.

Among the most living versions of a liturgical service I ever witnessed was at a Charismatic Lutheran church called Christ the King Lutheran Church in Lorraine, in the western suburbs of Cleveland. They followed the liturgy every week, until the Holy Spirit erupted in worship and interrupted the written order on our bulletins. Then prophecy, tongues and interpretation got added, often followed by a total revision of the Pastor's message to follow the direction that the Spirit Himself had taken.
 
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