Three Months...

Chuckle!!

But there's still Heb 11:1, Rom 10:17, and Mark 11:22-24

Simple as that.
That's the point. The scriptures don't grow old, but it's a lot more difficult to explain why you do not believe Mark 11 than to explain why you don't believe a geriatric televangelist with a jet. Let's talk Geritol here, and change the purpose of the forum.
 
That's the point. The scriptures don't grow old, but it's a lot more difficult to explain why you do not believe Mark 11 than to explain why you don't believe a geriatric televangelist with a jet. Let's talk Geritol here, and change the purpose of the forum.
I've got "Dish" service for TV, and there's a PILE of religious shows on about 7 different channels. Bucket loads of "Apostles", "Prophets", "Miracle workers" and the like. I don't watch 'em, of course, although once in a while I'll listen to Joyce Meyers for a while.

She reminds me a lot of Bob Mumford style-wise, and theology-wise, I used to REALLY enjoy learning from back in the '70s. He always said that he wanted to make you grin, so that when he punched you in the teeth with the truth, he wouldn't split your lip. And there was Derek Prince, who was very down to earth, and put it down line by line / Precept upon precept.

And, of course, we had the PREMIER WOF teacher Locally in Warsaw Indiana in the "Glory Barn". I don't think it would be legally possible these days to run a church like Hobart's. To be a member, you had to drop ALL your insurances, NEVER go to the doctor, and NEVER take medicines (including over the counter) since all of that was "Doubt". His Body count was over 100 by the time the State closed in on him, but of course he died of a completely treatable infection in his leg that "God had healed". Copeland at his wildest didn't even come close to Hobart Freeman.
 
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You could easily look up the term -- you'll find many definitions that won't play well with each other. My belief system is Christianity; my attitude toward my belief is apathy. I don't care. I like debate, so I'll debate you on what I know scripture to say.

Revelation 3:16​

16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.

Just saying...
 
I've got "Dish" service for TV, and there's a PILE of religious shows on about 7 different channels. Bucket loads of "Apostles", "Prophets", "Miracle workers" and the like. I don't watch 'em, of course, although once in a while I'll listen to Joyce Meyers for a while.

She reminds me a lot of Bob Mumford style-wise, and theology-wise. I used to REALLY enjoy learning from back in the '70s. He always said that he wanted to make you grin, so that when he punched you in the teeth with the truth, he wouldn't split your lip. And there was Derek Prince, who was very down to earth, and put it down line by line / Precept upon precept.

And, of course, we had the PREMIER WOF teacher Locally in Warsaw Indiana in the "Glory Barn". I don't think it would be legally possible these days to run a church like Hobart's. To be a member, you had to drop ALL your insurances, NEVER go to the doctor, and NEVER take medicines (including over the counter) since all of that was "Doubt". His Body count was over 100 by the time the State closed in on him, but of course he died of a completely treatable infection in his leg that "God had healed". Copeland at his wildest didn't even come close to Hobart Freeman.
To this day and since my return stateside 35 years ago, I have not seen anything like what I experienced and learned from wherever I went in the Charismatic Movement from 1970 to 1985. During that period, I moved from the westside of Cleveland, OH to Ashtabula, OH to Virginia Beach, Virginia to Asheville, NC. I wasn't church hopping; I was moving toward my life's call...and every church had the same teacher with an ever-expanding lesson plan. This was before the panic that the likes of John MacArthur inspired, (likely in response to the excesses of Hobart and company) that short-circuited any form of 1 Cor 14 spontaneity. Church has become an issue of stagecraft and performance art...a single performer with a backup band and a different spin on a well-developed message once or twice a week. Whatever the label that the elders of that building have chosen, the services are indistinguishable from week to week...from church to church. Only the liturgical services, with their rigidity of form, bear any resemblance to what Rome cauterized staged Christianity into.

At least we have the critics reassuring us that this is the Christianity Paul taught.
 

Revelation 3:16​

16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.

Just saying...
So you have a religion of salvation by works?

Scripture says:

I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; no one will snatch them from my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can snatch them from my Father’s hand. The Father and I are one.”​
John 10:28-30​

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.​
Ephesians 4:30​

I have one of Faith. If you want to make Revelation 3:16 about losing salvation then you make these scriptures liars.

Just saying...
 
Church has become an issue of stagecraft and performance art...a single performer with a backup band and a different spin on a well-developed message once or twice a week. Whatever the label that the elders of that building have chosen, the services are indistinguishable from week to week...from church to church. Only the liturgical services, with their rigidity of form, bear any resemblance to what Rome cauterized staged Christianity into.
This is confusing to me. You sound like you don't like any form (which I'm sure is not true).
 
So you have a religion of salvation by works?
Huh!?!
Scripture says:

I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; no one will snatch them from my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can snatch them from my Father’s hand. The Father and I are one.”​
John 10:28-30​

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.​
Ephesians 4:30​

I have one of Faith. If you want to make Revelation 3:16 about losing salvation then you make these scriptures liars.

Just saying...
By your own admission, supported by your own pride, you have bragged about being apathetic.
 
So you have a religion of salvation by works?

Scripture says:

I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; no one will snatch them from my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can snatch them from my Father’s hand. The Father and I are one.”​
John 10:28-30​

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.​
Ephesians 4:30​

I have one of Faith. If you want to make Revelation 3:16 about losing salvation then you make these scriptures liars.

Just saying...
Yeah…there’s that. And if you want to justify being lukewarm then you make Revelation 3 a lie. I hear a knock on your door. You might want to open it.
 
Yeah…there’s that. And if you want to justify being lukewarm then you make Revelation 3 a lie. I hear a knock on your door. You might want to open it.
I said I was apathetic; I didn't say I was lukewarm. You stand in judgement of my heart toward the Lord??

If YOU hear a knock on the door, perhaps YOU should open it. I can't get you saved.

I've already opened it and I am secure in the Father's hand, sealed by the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption. And nobody - not even me - can change that. Not even me because I am not my own any longer. I am His. And understanding this last is why I am not lukewarm.
 
One of your favorite phrases. Almost on par with "tyfyt's"

By your own admission, supported by your own pride, you have bragged about being apathetic.
Bragged? Hardly. Stated as fact, sure.

Doesn't change the fact that I am secure in the Father's hand, sealed by the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption. And nobody - not even me - can change that.
 
I like what 1Cor 14 describes as the standard. Anything less is less. A rehearsed performance is just that.
So nothing grows, nothing moves forward. Do you wear sandals that tie around your calf? Do you have a basin of water to wash the feet of visitors? Do you wear a tunic or a toga? You say in your siggy that you wear a beret? Jesus had no beret? A tie? Nope, not in the Corinthian church.

So you pick and choose what can be made more modern? Is that the case? So you judge the musician's hearts because they practice on Thursday before the Sunday services? So you judge those who flash strobe lights instead of play flutes and read from hymnals. Does your church use an organ? Didn't have those in the Corinthian churches. So by what hermeneutic do you pick and choose what to modernize? Probably your personal, prideful preference.
 
So nothing grows, nothing moves forward. Do you wear sandals that tie around your calf? Do you have a basin of water to wash the feet of visitors? Do you wear a tunic or a toga? You say in your siggy that you wear a beret? Jesus had no beret? A tie? Nope, not in the Corinthian church.

So you pick and choose what can be made more modern? Is that the case? So you judge the musician's hearts because they practice on Thursday before the Sunday services? So you judge those who flash strobe lights instead of play flutes and read from hymnals. Does your church use an organ? Didn't have those in the Corinthian churches. So by what hermeneutic do you pick and choose what to modernize? Probably your personal, prideful preference.
Do me a favor. Read the chapter. Read it again. When you can find Paul making an issue of sandals, you can say this is not the most ridiculously inane post you’ve ever written. Until then, that’s the charge. This is inane.
 
Do me a favor. Read the chapter. Read it again. When you can find Paul making an issue of sandals, you can say this is not the most ridiculously inane post you’ve ever written. Until then, that’s the charge. This is inane.
No, you made a case for "the standard. Anything less is less. A rehearsed performance is just that." This is an asinine statement. 1 Cor 14 is the MODEL upon which we build, not the actual movements and techniques. If you want this latter, then you are calling for not moving forward as things change. pipes gave way to strings, which were incorporated into organs and pianos, respectively. And these then digitized into electric instruments. Don't like the sound, find a church with pipes. Like the sound come worship in modern churches.

"The standard" as you call it, is whether Christ is preached and praised and sung about and exalted; whether people are helped and edified and corrected. For what you are doing is contrary to the theme of Romans 14:21: "...to do anything that causes your brother to stumble." ("Oh but that's about eating...." No, it is about "anything that causes....")
 
OK...You don't want to read the chapter. That's fine.
No, you made a case for "the standard. Anything less is less. A rehearsed performance is just that."
Looking for sandals. No sandals.
This is an asinine statement. 1 Cor 14 is the MODEL upon which we build, not the actual movements and techniques.
Oh...It's the model. Not the standard...Definition of standard: an idea or thing used as a measure, norm, or model in comparative evaluations:
"the wages are low by today's standards" · "the system had become an industry standard"
synonyms:
guideline · norm · yardstick · benchmark · gauge · measure · criterion · guide · touchstone · model · pattern · example · exemplar · paradigm · ideal · archetype · specification · requirement · rule · principle · law · canon

So...MODEL upon which we build...not STANDARD upon which we build. To me it's the only historic, written description of a typical meeting according to Paul's experience and expectation.
If you want this latter, then you are calling for not moving forward as things change. pipes gave way to strings, which were incorporated into organs and pianos, respectively. And these then digitized into electric instruments. Don't like the sound, find a church with pipes. Like the sound come worship in modern churches.
Really, Bob? What do inspiration and the Holy Spirit give way to? Are you suggesting liturgy?

"The standard" as you call it, is whether Christ is preached and praised and sung about and exalted; whether people are helped and edified and corrected. For what you are doing is contrary to the theme of Romans 14:21: "...to do anything that causes your brother to stumble." ("Oh but that's about eating...." No, it is about "anything that causes....")
No...it's who's actually doing the talking. Simple as that. Stop being so petulant.
 
OK...You don't want to read the chapter. That's fine.Looking for sandals. No sandals.
Oh...It's the model. Not the standard...Definition of standard: an idea or thing used as a measure, norm, or model in comparative evaluations:
"the wages are low by today's standards" · "the system had become an industry standard"
synonyms:
guideline · norm · yardstick · benchmark · gauge · measure · criterion · guide · touchstone · model · pattern · example · exemplar · paradigm · ideal · archetype · specification · requirement · rule · principle · law · canon
Quite the narcissistic rump of a mule, you are. Where did I ever juxtapose "standard" and "model" against one another. I said that what is shown in 1 Cor 14 is the model (or the standard, if you prefer that word) for our behavior, not the point by point actions that we are to mimic.

So...MODEL upon which we build...not STANDARD upon which we build.
Why do you build with straw??

To me it's the only historic, written description of a typical meeting according to Paul's experience and expectation.
Typical for his day and the initial building of the church, sure. What have I dismissed? I simply implied that it is not verbatim, which you seem to imply.

Really, Bob? What do inspiration and the Holy Spirit give way to? Are you suggesting liturgy?
Where did I say anything about liturgy. Simply because I replaced a pipe with an electric guitar? Are you seriously ignorant of my point?

No...it's who's actually doing the talking. Simple as that. Stop being so petulant.
Love ya, Pete. ?
 
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