Time to ‘Stop’ Zelensky!

docphin5

Well-known member
Here is a link to a nonwestern analysis of the Ukraine war by a retired Indian General, FYI.

Time to “stop” Zelensky!

You can read it for yourself but some takeaway points.

1). NATO has accomplished its goals in weakening Russia. Any further weakening of Russia risks the use of tactical nuclear weapons and …more escalation?

2) Dislodging Russia from Ukraine is not likely. Therefore, the longer the war goes goes on only adds to the suffering of Ukrainians. They have suffered enough already.

3). Zelensky has unrealistic expectations. The Western news is mostly propaganda in support of Zelensky but reality requires him to negotiate a peace settlement with Russia.

4) The American or British leaders will secretly tell Zelensky to negotiate in order to avoid NATO looking weak.

5). The USA retains its dominance over EU defense.
 
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wiseones2cents

Well-known member
1. NATO has accomplished its goal of peddling more arms to more countries so they can make profit off death and destruction.

2. Not only the suffering of the Ukrainians, but the economic suffering of the global community.

3. This has nothing to do with peace. The real reality is this is old fashioned war profiteering.

4) Or these idiots will escalate the war causing hundreds of millions of deaths while they stay safe in their tax dollar payed bunkers!!!

5. They are one and the same.

I'd like to add a 6. These idiotic Ukrainian supporters asking for more military support from the west should be protesting for peace not war! The ones protesting are the ones that have the most to gain from this war, They aren't on the front lines, or they'd be asking for a QUICK diplomatic solution!!!
 

TeabagSalad

Well-known member
1. NATO has accomplished its goal of peddling more arms to more countries so they can make profit off death and destruction.

2. Not only the suffering of the Ukrainians, but the economic suffering of the global community.

3. This has nothing to do with peace. The real reality is this is old fashioned war profiteering.

4) Or these idiots will escalate the war causing hundreds of millions of deaths while they stay safe in their tax dollar payed bunkers!!!

5. They are one and the same.

I'd like to add a 6. These idiotic Ukrainian supporters asking for more military support from the west should be protesting for peace not war! The ones protesting are the ones that have the most to gain from this war, They aren't on the front lines, or they'd be asking for a QUICK diplomatic solution!!!

Lol. The war in Ukraine was caused by Russia. The people of Ukraine want the Russian aggressors gone, so Ukraine's allies are supporting them.

Russia started the war, it ends when they leave. Or, do you think Ukraine shouldn't be allowed to defend their nation?
 

docphin5

Well-known member
Lol. The war in Ukraine was caused by Russia. The people of Ukraine want the Russian aggressors gone, so Ukraine's allies are supporting them.

Russia started the war, it ends when they leave. Or, do you think Ukraine shouldn't be allowed to defend their nation?
The seeds for the war in ukraine were sown ten years ago when NATO made plans to expand into Ukraine. IOW, NATO expansion towards Russia has contributed to the suffering of Ukraine by using them to weaken Russia. The war is not about democracy or freedom but a geo-political contest between two historical military rivals. From the nonwestern perspective of the author linked in the OP, NATO is sacrificing Ukrainians in order to weaken Russia. Ukraine does not benefit from this war, NATO does, unless they lose control of the situation and it goes nuclear. Then we all suffer.
 
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TeabagSalad

Well-known member
The seeds for the war in ukraine were sown ten years ago when NATO made plans to expand into Ukraine. IOW, NATO expansion towards Russia has contributed to the suffering of Ukraine by using them to weaken Russia. The war is not about democracy or freedom but a geo-political contest between two historical military rivals. From the nonwestern perspective of the author linked in the OP, NATO is sacrificing Ukrainians in order to weaken Russia. Ukraine does not benefit from this war, NATO does, unless they lose control of the situation and it goes nuclear. Then we all suffer.
Lol. More tired Russian propaganda.

You're not another Russian troll, are you?
 

docphin5

Well-known member
Lol. More tired Russian propaganda.

You're not another Russian troll, are you?
No just someone concerned about the welfare of Americans and what the real risks are the longer this war goes on. There is no winning if the war escalates into a nuclear shooting match. There is no good end state to a direct military conflict between two nuclear armed powers where one of them must lose as you hope for. If one loses we all lose. This isn’t a football match where losers go have a beer and plan a rematch. We will be too busy burying 50 million dead people.
 

wiseones2cents

Well-known member
Lol. The war in Ukraine was caused by Russia. The people of Ukraine want the Russian aggressors gone, so Ukraine's allies are supporting them.
Try again. The people in Ukraine from the Donbas region and Crimea want to keep their ties to Russia. They want the west out of their country.

Election results favoring the Russian leaning candidate.



Russia started the war, it ends when they leave. Or, do you think Ukraine shouldn't be allowed to defend their nation?
I keep explaining to you people how the war started and how the west is implicit and you people keep forgetting and repeating the same western propaganda.

The west installed 2 of the most corrupt individuals. Viktor Yushchenko and Yulia Tymoshenko.

The west is known to destabilize governments that do not "bend the knee" to the imperial west.

When people protest against western interests? They are terrorists.

When people protest for the interest of western elites, they are an oppressed people in need of saving.lol
 

Gondwanaland

Well-known member
1. NATO has accomplished its goal of peddling more arms to more countries so they can make profit off death and destruction.

2. Not only the suffering of the Ukrainians, but the economic suffering of the global community.

3. This has nothing to do with peace. The real reality is this is old fashioned war profiteering.

4) Or these idiots will escalate the war causing hundreds of millions of deaths while they stay safe in their tax dollar payed bunkers!!!

5. They are one and the same.

I'd like to add a 6. These idiotic Ukrainian supporters asking for more military support from the west should be protesting for peace not war! The ones protesting are the ones that have the most to gain from this war, They aren't on the front lines, or they'd be asking for a QUICK diplomatic solution!!!
Lick them Putin toes
 

vibise

Well-known member
The seeds for the war in ukraine were sown ten years ago when NATO made plans to expand into Ukraine. IOW, NATO expansion towards Russia has contributed to the suffering of Ukraine by using them to weaken Russia. The war is not about democracy or freedom but a geo-political contest between two historical military rivals. From the nonwestern perspective of the author linked in the OP, NATO is sacrificing Ukrainians in order to weaken Russia. Ukraine does not benefit from this war, NATO does, unless they lose control of the situation and it goes nuclear. Then we all suffer.
Ukraine has the right to apply for NATO membership, and its decision to do that should not be up to a neighboring country.

The suffering of Ukraine has been caused by an unjustified Russian invasion and countless examples of war crimes against civilians.

Ukraine does benefit if Russia is prevented from taking over their country.
 

docphin5

Well-known member
Ukraine has the right to apply for NATO membership, and its decision to do that should not be up to a neighboring country.
If that were universally true then we had no right to form a military blockade around Cuba when Cuba invited the Soviet Union to establish its presence there. It was Cubas right wasn’t it? This just shows that the real issue is not freedom but military domination over ones geo-political rival

The suffering of Ukraine has been caused by an unjustified Russian invasion and countless examples of war crimes against civilians.
It is more complicated than that. Ukraine has a six hundred year history with Russia. A portion of Ukrainians speak Russian. Putin may be an autocrat but he is Russian people’s autocrat and they expect him to defend their interests just as we expect our leaders to defend us.

Ukraine does benefit if Russia is prevented from taking over their country.
Your expectations are unrealistic. It is why I posted the nonwestern article. The nonwestern military expert sees the reality and presumes US leaders will force Zelensky to negotiate because they understand the reality of the situation. Stay tuned and see what happens. Hopefully, he is right.
 

LifeIn

Well-known member
Your expectations are unrealistic. It is why I posted the nonwestern article. The nonwestern military expert sees the reality and presumes US leaders will force Zelensky to negotiate because they understand the reality of the situation.
You posted an article from one non-western nation - India. But was that cherry-picking? Could you have found similar pro-Russian views from, say, Japan? I don't think so. I think you hoped that this one article that you selected would stand for the entire nonwestern world. Nope. It does not work that way.
 

docphin5

Well-known member
You posted an article from one non-western nation - India. But was that cherry-picking? Could you have found similar pro-Russian views from, say, Japan? I don't think so. I think you hoped that this one article that you selected would stand for the entire nonwestern world. Nope. It does not work that way.
Until you produce an analysis from a Japanese military expert whose conclusion is that Ukraine can win all of his territory back without any risk of a nuclear war then your just blowing smoke. Giving your opinion based solely on western propaganda. That was the point of a nonwestern analysis for an independent perspective. Look how you goof balls react when presented with an independent opinion: Everyone is Putin toe licker and traitor who seeks a negotiated peace more than a nuclear war. You think we should be bombing Russia into submission.
 

LifeIn

Well-known member
Until you produce an analysis from a Japanese military expert whose conclusion is that Ukraine can win all of his territory back without any risk of a nuclear war ...

No, that is not necessary to counter your Indian claims. The fact is that India is an ally of Russia. So it is not at all surprising that a military expert from India would express an opinion sympathetic to Russia. It is also a fact that Japan stands with Ukraine as a matter of policy. Russia is fairly isolated in the world in this conflict. Most nations side with Ukraine, but fear to be too forceful against Russia because Russia has nuclear weapons and a leader that is not afraid to use them. It is no consolation if fears about Putin's mental instability proved true.
 

wiseones2cents

Well-known member
Ukraine has the right to apply for NATO membership, and its decision to do that should not be up to a neighboring country.

They did apply and were rejected many times. Mostly due to the fact it was deemed a CORRUPT country. ;
The suffering of Ukraine has been caused by an unjustified Russian invasion and countless examples of war crimes against civilians.

Really? Who started bombing the east in 2014?? You guys are all democratic political shills
Ukraine does benefit if Russia is prevented from taking over their country.
Prove it. This is nothing but an opinion.
 
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inertia

Super Member
Until you produce an analysis from a Japanese military expert whose conclusion is that Ukraine can win all of his territory back without any risk of a nuclear war then your just blowing smoke. Giving your opinion based solely on western propaganda. That was the point of a nonwestern analysis for an independent perspective. Look how you goof balls react when presented with an independent opinion: Everyone is Putin toe licker and traitor who seeks a negotiated peace more than a nuclear war. You think we should be bombing Russia into submission.

- bombing Ukraine into submission isn't working
- Nuclear warfare propaganda has lost momentum
- conscripts are not providing the professional Russian war-fighter needed to win war

However, a surrender hotline for Russian soldiers is making a difference.

_127804845_ukrainian_messages_2_640-nc.png.webp


___
 

vibise

Well-known member
If that were universally true then we had no right to form a military blockade around Cuba when Cuba invited the Soviet Union to establish its presence there. It was Cubas right wasn’t it? This just shows that the real issue is not freedom but military domination over ones geo-political rival


It is more complicated than that. Ukraine has a six hundred year history with Russia. A portion of Ukrainians speak Russian. Putin may be an autocrat but he is Russian people’s autocrat and they expect him to defend their interests just as we expect our leaders to defend us.


Your expectations are unrealistic. It is why I posted the nonwestern article. The nonwestern military expert sees the reality and presumes US leaders will force Zelensky to negotiate because they understand the reality of the situation. Stay tuned and see what happens. Hopefully, he is right.
I have relatives in Ukraine and learned Ukrainian culture and history as a child. The argument can be made that Ukraine has a long history with Russia, but the same can be said of about the interrelationships of various European countries, or Texas and Mexico for that matter. And most Europeans speak more than one language.

As already pointed out, your nonwestern source is actually quite dependent on Russia, so is not unbiased.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
No just someone concerned about the welfare of Americans and what the real risks are the longer this war goes on. There is no winning if the war escalates into a nuclear shooting match. There is no good end state to a direct military conflict between two nuclear armed powers where one of them must lose as you hope for. If one loses we all lose. This isn’t a football match where losers go have a beer and plan a rematch. We will be too busy burying 50 million dead people.
Appeasement as a strategy has a very poor record.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
They did apply and were rejected many times. Mostly due to the fact it was deemed a CORRUPT country. ;


Really? Who started bombing the east in 2014?? You guys are all democratic political shills

Prove it. This is nothing but an opinion.
It's the opinion of the Ukrainians. The only opinion that matters.
 
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