"times and seasons"

Tonyg

Member
It's negative and harsh to admit that this world is a fallen situation.

But that's the situation. The cross made it legally possible for us to be saved.

The Change is the de facto saving. de facto versus legally possible.
Good words, we would understand the de facto saving occurred when the Roman and Jewish persecution was removed has indicated in Daniel chapter 7 and Deuteronomy 32 and Isaiah 59, and the legally saved entered physically and spiritually into an area like Eden, only without the law sending death.
 

e v e

Super Member
thank you .

i was just thinking, not related to this thread...
what a Gruesome system is this world... (cosmos, literally, physically, this earth, COSMOS as this physical cosmos... same as HE uses the word Kosmos in scripture!)

He did not put us here! It was the fall that did that.
He would not dump us into this prison of Death
and Suffering...
and never did.

But no one wants to go Home..
so be are they all being 'saved already' and enjoying this world and body
and all its needs and wants...and convincing themselves that God would have done this..
and look...even Calvin in his institutes enthralled by flesh, going on about the wonders of this body.

(Feeling ill just thinking of him.... no different than the Rome he supposedly fought against...)
And he confused the soul with the Self... calling the soul depraved.

But GOD created the soul! Nothing He creates is depraved.

The soul is the only part of us here that can enter Heaven and that is His here...
the rest will perish.
 

e v e

Super Member
Good words, we would understand the de facto saving occurred when the Roman and Jewish persecution was removed has indicated in Daniel chapter 7 and Deuteronomy 32 and Isaiah 59, and the legally saved entered physically and spiritually into an area like Eden, only without the law sending death.
I don't know who 'we' is you refer to.

I just know that for me based on what He says, only He - de facto is the Change. <3
The physicality of Eden is not 'these' bodies...so the physically going back to Eden (but new) is not physically in mortal bodies.
For we are Changed to the imperishable (Paul). LITERALLY.

And it's soon.
 

e v e

Super Member
Well that is a another presupposition that I wouldn't necessarily agree with. I do not believe that physical, bodily death is the result of the sin of eating the fruit in the garden. Man was made during and along with the other classes of seed bearing plants and seed bearing reproducing animals. Jesus corrected this misconception that the Jews had also, saying to them haven't you heard that from the beginning he made them male and female, a procreating pair, therefore what God hath ordained let no man put ussunder . Is telling the Pharisees not to be angry with their wives because their sins are not the reason for his not feeling blessed by God.

So yes though we have a lifespan that has been shortened from about a thousand years to about 100 years so that we can see the end of our days from the beginning as is mentioned in the Old testament somewhere, we have similar but not as enduring bodies. That is my perspective, and I believe that is the perspective which Jesus does not want us to put us under but rather to embrace.


So on Jesus says flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom, the words flesh and blood are sometimes used to represent works and striving especially against the spirit of condemnation inherit from the garden fall.

But additionally it could also apply to the idea that in the (alledged) world to come after the (alleged) cosmological change, flesh and blood will not be there.
Actually... scripture says it over and over. The whole of scripture is to get us back. Flesh is not symbolic as I read the text. As I said...I read literally. It says Flesh. The carnal = flesh.
 

e v e

Super Member
Being kicked out of Eden is not symbolic. It's physical, cosmological and the effect was toil, pain, suffering, sweat and Death. God calls the result: Death when he warns adam not to eat of that fruit.

Spiritual death and physical death. Everything that has done since that day has been a fallen situation.

Everything God has been doing has been getting us to come back to Him. The culmination of that is our return to paradise.

The body Adam received in Eden is the one each of his Souls will have soon.
 

Tonyg

Member
These types of discussions and debates are some of the reasons that I wrote articles. It was also to give an answer to the hope and understanding that lies with in me and to cease from endless and continuous debates and arguments with the dispensational futurist and futurists in general.

What I propose going forward, and even in this discussion of times and seasons, is either here or in the preterist section that the section of the article being discussed is copied and pasted as the opening post of the thread. That way the thread can better stay on topic.!

It's sort of prefer that it was over in the preterist section, but would accept if they are posted here. That way others can also read the topic and either glean from that or joining the discussion. :). If I do it, I will probably put it in the preteris section. If you would like to have it here then I would invite you to copy and paste the complete section of the article to be discussed.

But I'll likely focus any interaction on clarification and further explanation rather than contesting and debating others beliefs and opinions.

When a person has a presupposition or theological perspective and then finds support for those ideas in what they refer to as the scriptures, that is what is we call isogesis. If you were a professor I'm relatively sure you understand that word. Exegesis involves more difficult and time-consuming inductive study of using hermeneutic principles, observing the literature, original audience, grammar, structure historical and covenantal setting, historical knowledge and so forth and so on to determine what is likely being intended by the writer and ultimately by God. Then, eventually collaborating with other similarly derived insights and understandins, they support or reform theories and hypothesis with the eventual happening of coming to the knowledge of the truth.
 
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e v e

Super Member
If you want a mod to move the thread, then do so. It’s your topic I responded to.


In the op I was very narrow in subject, only looking at the specific lines noted in your first point of the ten, and the greek words in those lines.


You mentioned the procedures you would like to pursue for posters - problem is that I cannot conform to someone else’s or even a consensus view of a preferred way or method of posting or of reading or of exegeting. It’s an intentional choice from long ago, nothing personal okay. This is free time on a forum and it’s my honor as a soul of His to only speak genuine words that I wish to speak and understand as true when I communicate to other souls. That includes the way I say what I say, the context of what I say and the words I say.
 

e v e

Super Member
I understand the terms you use but don’t agree to rules you described as to how I can properly post or read. Hermeneutics developed from ancient Greek philosophy I suppose you know. A subject among others that I taught for years and know too much about. I‘ve developed quite a negative view of it actually given that its mindset/point of view is, by its nature, against God.
 

e v e

Super Member
Christ did not use hermeneutics to talk to souls, or theologize or debate with his followers. Where does Christ say to employ diaeresis?
 

e v e

Super Member
A terrible mistake was the mixing of greek forms into christian theology.

Horrible.




Hermeneutics is the theory and methodology of interpretation. The tradition of Western hermeneutics starts in the writings of Aristotle and continues to the modern era.”



I don’t follow Aristotle (plato’s student).
I don’t follow plato.


I follow Christ.
 

Tonyg

Member
Christ did not use hermeneutics to talk to souls, or theologize or debate with his followers. Where does Christ say to employ diaeresis?
Well yes he did. The fact that Jesus taught hermeneutics is one of the supporting points to study it.

Do you remember when the disciples asked him how was it that Elias is supposed to come before the Christ. Jesus had to explain to them that Elias is coming was a figurative sense and that indeed he had already come in the person of John the Baptist. So Jesus was teaching them symbolic implications of Old testament prophecy, and how they were being fulfilled in their very day.

Another example is how Jesus confounded the Pharisees by asking them what David meant when he said the Lord said to my Lord ...

Mat 22:44-46 KJV 44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? 46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

A third example is how Jesus refers or alludes to Old testament prophecies and indicates or even explains their fulfillment in him and in the apostles day. For example in John 5 & 6 he says that Moses spoke of him, referring to how Moses prophesied of a prophet to come in Deuteronomy 18 15 through 19, who would bring the very words of God and in that time the people and ways of the Mosaic covenant people would cease.

Or in Matthew 24:34 Jesus paraphrased Isaiah 54:10 by saying heaven and Earth shall pass away but my words shall not pass away. In Isaiah 54:10 the words are; though the hills and the mountains shall depart my covenant of peace shall remain forever.

Mat 24:35 KJV Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Isa 54:10 KJV For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee.

So here is another example of how the words heaven and earth become terms that mean the high places from where lofty laws, ordinances and principles originate. Just as Jerusalem was a city of high hills upon which people would ascend to worship including the concubines and wives of Solomon who ascended Mount olivet to sacrifice and burn incense to their foreign gods.

So Jesus is teaching the apostles and disciples hermeneutics as he is talking to them and living with them for the three and a half years. After the first three and a half years the holy spirit continues to confirm the fulfillment of prophecy and give illumination and understanding especially to the apostles as they explained and affirmed there fulfillment to the receivers of their letters.

If you want to comment on things in your own way feel free. I will probably not dialogue or interact with them. I've spent many years and too much time developing the articles so that I wouldn't have to do that. It would be a little disrespectful to talk of the passage without the context of the article and the perspective, that generated the discussion.

But that would be up to you. We have several dichotomous perspectives, but it's been cordial.
 
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Tonyg

Member
I think you have to twist scripture to come up with that.
And I would make the same observation and claim of the future perspective! The futurists and many perspectives attempt to twist the original intent of the books and narratives of the Bible to read it as if it was written to them or us, and the words to be read physically / literally rather than literarily.
 
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e v e

Super Member
And I would make the same observation and claim of the future perspective! The futurists and many perspectives attempt to twist the original intent of the books and narratives of the Bible to read it as if it was written to them or us, and the words to be read physically / literally rather than literarily.
futurists if I am not mistaken believe israel will be reestablished on this earth. And that Christ will rule on this earth?

preterists also think it’s all on this earth.

I am saying that He did not create this earth and per prophets will be destroyed - the whole earth - destroyed.

Further, that he did not create this body.

I don’t fit your labels.

This earth has no future.
 

e v e

Super Member
The earth was obviously not destroyed already. It hasn’t happened yet. You are still here.
 

Tonyg

Member
and per prophets will be destroyed - the whole earth - destroyed.

Every instance that I know where profits speak of a new having a new Earth and or a judgment upon the Earth or like Peter says in 2nd Peter 3 that the Earth will be consumed by fire, these are all referring to events of 70 AD.

Another one of the 10 passages that are discussed in that article is 2nd Peter chapter 3.

If you want to quote some Old testament prophets you claim that the Earth is supposed to be burnt up feel free.

Ecclesiastes and Solomon indicate that one generation comes and another generation goes but the Earth remains forever
futurists if I am not mistaken believe israel will be reestablished on this earth. And that Christ will rule on this earth?

preterists also think it’s all on this earth.

I am saying that He did not create this earth and per prophets will be destroyed - the whole earth - destroyed.

Further, that he did not create this body.

I don’t fit your labels.

This earth has no future.
I think it's your own labels that you're trying not to fit. I don't typically assume a whole lot about different people's beliefs, as there are so many that I've run into. If you don't want to believe that the Earth is created or that he created our bodies that's fine I happen to believe that and some assemblance of the ideas.

But again back to the words times and seasons. Isn't it obvious from quoting the Old testament passage that the words times and seasons referred to the feast and festivals of the Jewish religious and civil calendar which commemorated the activities of the 40-year transition from Egypt to Israel?

Likewise there would be a 40-year transition from the Mosaic covenant Jerusalem and Judea spiritually called Egypt and Sodom in Revelation, to the time of the dissolution of that nation in 66 to 73 ad.

The apostles were not to all experience those feasts and festivals during the next forty years, but they would all experience the time of Pentecost during which they would receive power. In the book of Acts and as we glean from Paul and Peter's letters they attended the cultural celebrations and feasts but they did not continue to participate in them in a Jewish sense. They use them to talk to the fellow citizens and to encourage their own beliefs during meetings and gatherings..

Times and seasons equals feast and festivals
 
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