Titus 3:5 exposes the anomalous dilemma of Calvinism.

Synergy

Well-known member
A Calvinist Poster offered the following list as to how Calvinists are saved:

God regenerates us.
Then we believe.
THEN God saves us.

Let's import Titus 3:5 into the above Calvinist theory of salvation and see what transpires.

(Titus 3:5) not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

STEP 1: "God regenerates us" becomes through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, God saved us.
STEP 2: "Then we believe" stays the same.
STEP 3: "THEN God saves us" becomes God saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

Note: In no way are we conflating salvation and regeneration, just following what Titus 3:5 says.

We immediately see 2 massive anomalous flaws with Calvinist theory of salvation:
  • The Calvinist is saved twice, making them the Twice Saved.
  • The Calvinist is regenerated twice, making them the RE-regenerated.
So how do we proceed to resolve this anomalous dilemma? The only way is to remove step 1 or step 3 from the Calvinist theory of salvation. Which step do we take out?

Hint: This is the Biblical Way of salvation:
  1. We Believe
  2. Gods saves us through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5)
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
A Calvinist Poster offered the following list as to how Calvinists are saved:

God regenerates us.
Then we believe.
THEN God saves us.

Let's import Titus 3:5 into the above Calvinist theory of salvation and see what transpires.

(Titus 3:5) not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

STEP 1: "God regenerates us" becomes through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, God saved us.
STEP 2: "Then we believe" stays the same.
STEP 3: "THEN God saves us" becomes God saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

Note: In no way are we conflating salvation and regeneration, just following what Titus 3:5 says.

We immediately see 2 massive anomalous flaws with Calvinist theory of salvation:
  • The Calvinist is saved twice, making them the Twice Saved.
  • The Calvinist is regenerated twice, making them the RE-regenerated.
So how do we proceed to resolve this anomalous dilemma? The only way is to remove step 1 or step 3 from the Calvinist theory of salvation. Which step do we take out?

Hint: This is the Biblical Way of salvation:
  1. We Believe
  2. Gods saves us through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5)
Faith is sandwiched between the Washing of Regeneration and the Renewing of the Spirit; these are the One hypostatic New Birth. Admittedly we All believe the New Birth is only One Act of the Holy Spirit, which is said to be a two step process of Washing and Renewing. We are Born of Water and the Spirit...
 
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LeeH

Well-known member
Faith is sandwiched between the Washing of Regeneration and the Renewing of the Spirit; these are the One hypostatic New Birth. Admittedly we All believe the New Birth is only One Act of the Holy Spirit, which is said to be a two step process of Washing and Renewing. We are Born of Water and the Spirit...
Why would you need to be regenerated to witness and believe in a miracle though, surely even the dead can do that, can't they?
 

Christian

Well-known member
Why would you need to be regenerated to witness and believe in a miracle though, surely even the dead can do that, can't they?
What was the one and only miracle Jesus said He would give the unbelieving pharisees and jewish leaders who rejected Him ? :)

no need for regeneration to believe the evidence of a miracle. 1000's of people witnessed Jesus miracles and did not believe in Him and remained lost.
 

Synergy

Well-known member
Faith is sandwiched between the Washing of Regeneration and the Renewing of the Spirit; these are the One hypostatic New Birth. Admittedly we All believe the New Birth is only One Act of the Holy Spirit, which is said to be a two step process of Washing and Renewing. We are Born of Water and the Spirit...
Are you proposing the following 3 steps?

STEP 1: Washing of Regeneration,
STEP 2: We believe,
STEP 3: God saves us with the Renewing of the Spirit (plus Washing of Regeneration of STEP 1)

If so, you will need to produce a verse explicitly confirming regeneration before belief.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Are you proposing the following 3 steps?

STEP 1: Washing of Regeneration,
STEP 2: We believe,
STEP 3: God saves us with the Renewing of the Spirit (plus Washing of Regeneration of STEP 1)

If so, you will need to produce a verse explicitly confirming regeneration before belief.
Yes; one act of New Birth which has two components. This way Regeneration can be Prevenient, and Faith can prevene the consummation of the New Birth; Logically occuring before the Renewal of the Spirit...
 

Synergy

Well-known member
Yes; one act of New Birth which has two components. This way Regeneration can be Prevenient, and Faith can prevene the consummation of the New Birth; Logically occuring before the Renewal of the Spirit...
Where's that elusive "regeneration before belief" confirming verse that all Calvinists are at a loss to find in the Bible?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Are you proposing the following 3 steps?

STEP 1: Washing of Regeneration,
STEP 2: We believe,
STEP 3: God saves us with the Renewing of the Spirit (plus Washing of Regeneration of STEP 1)

If so, you will need to produce a verse explicitly confirming regeneration before belief.

1) Why do you misinterpret the verse by including “regeneration” TWICE, even though it’s only mentiond ONCE?
2) Why do you try to insist on forcing Calvinists to accept your misinterpretation?
3) Calvinists only believe in ONE regeneration.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Are you proposing the following 3 steps?

STEP 1: Washing of Regeneration,
STEP 2: We believe,
STEP 3: God saves us with the Renewing of the Spirit (plus Washing of Regeneration of STEP 1)

If so, you will need to produce a verse explicitly confirming regeneration before belief.
I have believed like this for a while. A diagram of the New Birth can look like a Poke Ball. It's round with a line down the center like an equator, with a button in the center of the line. One hemisphere of the ball is red and the other is white. Let's say red is Washing and white is Renewing; and the button in the middle is Faith. From left to right, we have Washing, Faith, and Renewal...

Press the button...
 

Howie

Well-known member
A Calvinist Poster offered the following list as to how Calvinists are saved:

God regenerates us.
Then we believe.
THEN God saves us.

Let's import Titus 3:5 into the above Calvinist theory of salvation and see what transpires.

(Titus 3:5) not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

STEP 1: "God regenerates us" becomes through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, God saved us.
STEP 2: "Then we believe" stays the same.
STEP 3: "THEN God saves us" becomes God saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

Note: In no way are we conflating salvation and regeneration, just following what Titus 3:5 says.

We immediately see 2 massive anomalous flaws with Calvinist theory of salvation:
  • The Calvinist is saved twice, making them the Twice Saved.
  • The Calvinist is regenerated twice, making them the RE-regenerated.
So how do we proceed to resolve this anomalous dilemma? The only way is to remove step 1 or step 3 from the Calvinist theory of salvation. Which step do we take out?

Hint: This is the Biblical Way of salvation:
  1. We Believe
  2. Gods saves us through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5)
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
 

Howie

Well-known member
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Salvation has eternally been by grace, through faith, none of that from you, all of salvation is God's gift, none of salvation is from works, that's to keep you from boasting, in anyway, "I saved myself." (Gen 15:6; Rom 4; Eph 2:8-10).

Salvation happens once -- just once.

😉
 
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Christian

Well-known member
Salvation has eternally been by grace, through faith, none if that from you, all of salvation is God's gift, none of salvation is from works, thst's to keep you from boasting, in anyway, "I saved myself." (Gen 15:6; Rom 4; Eph 2:8-10).

😉
the gospel is called the eternal gospel and must be believed by faith. And there is only One True Gospel. The new birth comes after hearing and believing the gospel, not before.

next

 

Christian

Well-known member
Salvation has eternally been by grace, through faith, none if that from you, all of salvation is God's gift, none of salvation is from works, that's to keep you from boasting, in anyway, "I saved myself." (Gen 15:6; Rom 4; Eph 2:8-10).

Salvation happens once -- just once.

😉
The new birth being born again comes through the message of the gospel. It doesn't come before but after faith.

1 Peter 1:21-24
Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,

“All people are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25 but the word of the Lord endures forever.”
And this is the word that was preached to you.

So Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ !

Romans 10
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

hope this helps !!!
 

Howie

Well-known member
the gospel is called the eternal gospel and must be believed by faith. And there is only One True Gospel. The new birth comes after hearing and believing the gospel, not before.
Dead people can't do anything, let alone understand and believe Spiritual things. They are hostile toward God, cannot submit to His commands and cannot please God (Rom 8:6-8).
 
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