Titus 3:5 exposes the anomalous dilemma of Calvinism.

Reformedguy said:
So your actually saved by regeneration not faith?
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In the Temporal Order, all aspects of Salvation at Belief; are first in Order, because there is no second aspect in an instance of Time...

But there is a second, a third, etc in the Logical Order. We use All Scripture in order to discover the first factor of Salvation in the Logical Order...
 
Synergy said:
A Calvinist Poster offered the following list as to how Calvinists are saved:

God regenerates us.
Then we believe.
THEN God saves us.

Let's import Titus 3:5 into the above Calvinist theory of salvation and see what transpires.

(Titus 3:5) not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

STEP 1: "God regenerates us" becomes through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, God saved us.
STEP 2: "Then we believe" stays the same.
STEP 3: "THEN God saves us" becomes God saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

Note: In no way are we conflating salvation and regeneration, just following what Titus 3:5 says.

We immediately see 2 massive anomalous flaws with Calvinist theory of salvation:
  • The Calvinist is saved twice, making them the Twice Saved.
  • The Calvinist is regenerated twice, making them the RE-regenerated.
So how do we proceed to resolve this anomalous dilemma? The only way is to remove step 1 or step 3 from the Calvinist theory of salvation. Which step do we take out?

Hint: This is the Biblical Way of salvation:
  1. We Believe
  2. Gods saves us through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5)
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Did you notice that the verse you quoted, totally negated human action in its description? (this does not mean that humans don't act or do in the salvation process as other verses indicate, but that the verse quoted explicitly negates human action in its description) Let's look at the parts of the verse.

-"not by works of righteousness which we have done" Note how human actions of a righteous quality are negated
-"but according to His mercy He saved us" Note the use of the word "but" as a sign of contrast. In contrast, to the earlier negation of human righteous action, God acted in His mercy to save us.
-"through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit" Note the use of the word "though" as it indicates the means of the saving of the previous portion. The washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit are both God's acts.

So, did you notice that the verse you quoted, totally negated human action within the confines of its description?
 
Christian said:
Faith comes before regeneration.
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See?

This COULD be an excellent learning/teaching opportunity, for you to say:

"I know Calvinists believe that regeneration precedes faith, because this is how we understood things", and then give a compelling argument that Calvinist would accept, instead of worthless one-liners that agree with the anti-Calvinist party line.

Christian said:
Still conflating and projecting as an apologetic .
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You're the one "conflating" salvation with regeneration.
They are not the same thing.

Christian said:
BTW questions are not apologetics rofl ?
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Then stop using them as such.
 
Theo1689 said:
See?

This COULD be an excellent learning/teaching opportunity, for you to say:

"I know Calvinists believe that regeneration precedes faith, because this is how we understood things", and then give a compelling argument that Calvinist would accept, instead of worthless one-liners that agree with the anti-Calvinist party line.



You're the one "conflating" salvation with regeneration.
They are not the same thing.



Then stop using them as such.
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Set the example for us to follow .

Lead by example instead of projecting .

hope this helps !!!
 
armylngst said:
The first, that God regenerates us, is God taking our heart of stone and replacing it with a heart of flesh. It is God taking us from being the natural man who is incapable of understanding the gospel, to the spiritual man who revels in it. It is as Jesus said, taking what is impossible with man, and God makes it possible. Without God, salvation remains impossible, if Jesus is to be believed. With open ears, and lifted blindness, the natural man becomes a spiritual man understanding the message of the gospel, and falling under the conviction of it. (Like with Saul. God first wakes him up, then crushes him with the truth, then buries Saul in the sand, and out comes Paul. This is like the perfect example of God being the one who saves, how He does it, and the fact that we cannot/do not come out the same.
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It would be nice if you could indicate which Bible passages you're referring to.

Paul does refer to a natural man and spiritual man when he writes to the Corinthians. Now these Corinthians are already saved, redeemed, regenerate, and indwelt saints. Why would Paul talk to regenerated saints about a "natural man"? That's because that Church was well known for its congregation that was still “carnal” (1 Cor 3:3) and was still “babes in Christ” (1 Cor 3:1). Paul was admonishing all church members to embrace that which the Holy Spirit teaches and not to be a “natural man” who knows nothing of the things of the Spirit. Paul was not talking exclusively about unregenerate man. It would be out of context to use those verses in that way. Paul was talking to the entire Corinthian congregation that they need to be a spiritual man and not a natural man. Paul's message is to the entire congregation to stop being carnal and to grow up spiritually. That is a message for all regenerates.
armylngst said:
The faith is that which comes about, a reaction to, facing the truth of who we are, and the truth of who God is. That complete and absolute transformation of the mind. We no longer look at life, or God, the same.
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Our salvific belief comes about as a reaction to the effectual Word of God for those who believe, not that the elect are regenerated to believe.

1 Th 2:13 And for this cause we thank God without ceasing, that when you received the Word of hearing, of God, you welcomed it as the Word of God, not as a word of men, but as it is, truly the Word of God, which also effectually works in you who believe.

Read also Rom 10:8-18 for more details on the effectual Word of God.
 
Reformedguy said:
Your faith saved you. "For by grace have been saved through faith".

So whats the purpose of regeneration post faith?
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You can't isolate regeneration from everything else that's going on in one's salvation. You need to tie in salvific belief and God's Grace to get a better picture of salvation.

Let's start by harmonizing Eph 2:8 (which you selected) with Titus 3:5 (the OP topic).
Harmonization is possible when you consider the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit is part of God's Grace and therefore both verses are talking about exactly the same moment we are saved. It is one salvation but two steps. First step is our belief in Christ (Rom 10:8-10). Second step is our regeneration by receiving the Holy Spirit (Gal 3:5). Both steps happen in that sequence and at the same time so there is one and only one salvation.
 
preacher4truth said:
True ministers of God's word speak openly about what they believe. Note Paul in 2 Cor. 2:7; 2 Cor. 4:1-2.

Others won't answer, they have something to hide.
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We noticed that Calvinists are very open about dishing out derogatory and inflamatory terms such as "stupid", "dumbest", "demonic", and "pit of hell".
 
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