Titus 3:5 exposes the anomalous dilemma of Calvinism.

[Synergy]

If I did that I wouldn't be obeying Matthew 7:6 in light of your crowd.

OK, you refuse to stay in Titus and exegete it.

Is it because you cannot, or will not? If you can, why not? You're the one arguing its meaning outside of the context of the passage.

As I stated, it is a difficult text.

I can just as easily appeal to the same verse Matt 7:6 in light of your stigmatizing and insulting comrades, and we would get absolutely nowhere in this forum and the same thing can happen on all other forums. What are you afraid of? God’s Word always prevails. Believe it!

You’re the one who is imposing and insisting on the Titus limitations, so it’s you who needs to show us how you go about understanding what is encapsulated by God’s Grace within Titus 3:7. If you can't or won't then what does that say about imposing your standards on others?

As for my OP, now that it's been established that there is a direct relationship between regeneration and salvation, what salvific use does Calvinism have for faith, except for being Twice Saved.

 

[preacher4truth]

I can just as easily appeal to the same verse Matt 7:6 in light of your stigmatizing and insulting comrades,

And?

You’re the one who is imposing and insisting on the Titus limitations,

This is where I end our dialog. This is at least the second time you've laid serious and completely false charges on me. The first false charge, iirc, is I don't believe the epistles.

It's not worth my time to engage with professing believers who don't mind offering up libel.

And? You've actually proven why Christ Jesus tells me to obey Matthew 7:6. You've reacted exactly in the manner He said.

Take care.

 

[Theo1689]

I can just as easily appeal to the same verse Matt 7:6 in light of your stigmatizing and insulting comrades,

If that's you feel, then you would be perfectly correct.
But if you felt that way and instead disobeyed Jesus, then may God have mercy on your soul.

and we would get absolutely nowhere in this forum and the same thing can happen on all other forums. What are you afraid of? God’s Word always prevails. Believe it!

We are afraid of the consequences coming from disobeying the teachings of Jesus.
Why are you trying to "goad" us into disobeying Jesus.

You’re the one who is imposing and insisting on the Titus limitations, so it’s you who needs to show us how you go about understanding what is encapsulated by God’s Grace within Titus 3:7.

Nope.
We have no obligation to "show" you anything.
Especially when it's obvious you would never accept it anyway.
God commands us to be good stewards of our time.

If you can't or won't then what does that say about imposing your standards on others?

God knows I'm consistent.

As for my OP, now that it's been established that there is a direct relationship between regeneration and salvation, what salvific use does Calvinism have for faith, except for being Twice Saved.

Again, we don't believe in "being Twice Saved".
That's YOUR worthless straw-man.
And you will have to answer to God for repeatedly misrepresenting us.

But faith is the MEANS by which God draws the elect to Christ.

 

[armylngst]

It would be nice if you could indicate which Bible passages you're referring to.

Paul does refer to a natural man and spiritual man when he writes to the Corinthians. Now these Corinthians are already saved, redeemed, regenerate, and indwelt saints. Why would Paul talk to regenerated saints about a "natural man"? That's because that Church was well known for its congregation that was still “carnal” (1 Cor 3:3) and was still “babes in Christ” (1 Cor 3:1). Paul was admonishing all church members to embrace that which the Holy Spirit teaches and not to be a “natural man” who knows nothing of the things of the Spirit. Paul was not talking exclusively about unregenerate man. It would be out of context to use those verses in that way. Paul was talking to the entire Corinthian congregation that they need to be a spiritual man and not a natural man. Paul's message is to the entire congregation to stop being carnal and to grow up spiritually. That is a message for all regenerates.

You may want to read the actual passage I Corinthians 2 "
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

This has nothing to do with carnality in the church. Paul is speaking of people who are not saved. This is not Paul's audience, for what does Paul say of his audience? "12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God." and into verse 13.

Our salvific belief comes about as a reaction to the effectual Word of God for those who believe, not that the elect are regenerated to believe.

Saul's Damascus story doesn't show that at all. In fact, it shows Saul regenerated into Paul, before Ananias ever gets the chance to teach him more about Jesus and God. What came to Ananias was the self-reflective, introspective Paul. Who left Ananias was the saved Paul. I think there is a reason why God made a whole show of the scales falling from Paul's eyes after he meets Ananias.

1 Th 2:13 And for this cause we thank God without ceasing, that when you received the Word of hearing, of God, you welcomed it as the Word of God, not as a word of men, but as it is, truly the Word of God, which also effectually works in you who believe.

Read also Rom 10:8-18 for more details on the effectual Word of God.

 

[His clay]

Correct. Regeneration is wholly accomplished by God.
That's already accounted for in my OP when I wrote the following salvation sequence in my OP:

Hint: This is the Biblical Way of salvation:

1. We Believe
2. Gods saves us through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5)

Step 2 is wholly of God. Our part is step 1 which is to believe in Christ and occurs before we receive the Holy Spirit (Gal 3:5,14) and Whose effects are mentioned in Titus 3:5.

It's good to see that you are at least adding verses to better support your point after noticing that the only verse used in the opening post only supported the second point.

 

[Synergy]

You may want to read the actual passage I Corinthians 2 "
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

This has nothing to do with carnality in the church. Paul is speaking of people who are not saved. This is not Paul's audience, for what does Paul say of his audience? "12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God." and into verse 13.

All the verses I highlighted above definitely have to do with people who "have received ... the Spirit which is of God". That means they are regenerated. Besides, Paul's Epistle is addressed to the Corinthian believers.

Saul's Damascus story doesn't show that at all. In fact, it shows Saul regenerated into Paul, before Ananias ever gets the chance to teach him more about Jesus and God. What came to Ananias was the self-reflective, introspective Paul. Who left Ananias was the saved Paul. I think there is a reason why God made a whole show of the scales falling from Paul's eyes after he meets Ananias.

 

[Synergy]

It's good to see that you are at least adding verses to better support your point after noticing that the only verse used in the opening post only supported the second point.

Step #1 is best supported by Rom 10:8-18 which talks about the effectual Word of God.

What do you think about the order? Do you believe it's salvific belief before regeneration or regeneration before salvific belief?

 

[His clay]

Personally, I pick my battles. I've chosen the issue of God's gifting of faith in salvation.

Regarding regeneration in the order of salvation, I think that good arguments can be made on both sides, but I think that the Calvinist position has better footing. I generally pick different ground to do battle on though.

 

[Synergy]

It's not worth my time to engage with professing believers who don't mind offering up libel.

And? You've actually proven why Christ Jesus tells me to obey Matthew 7:6. You've reacted exactly in the manner He said.

Take care.

Concerning your precious “The Potters Freedom” book, everything that you told me about it does not qualify as holy and neither as pearls. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

Take care also.

 

[preacher4truth]

Concerning your precious “The Potters Freedom” book, everything that you told me about it does not qualify as holy and neither as pearls. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

Look at how you act. I mean, really look.

It probably hurt your feelings that I pointed out you react just like Jesus stated in Matthew 7:6. Hurt feelings won't lend you a thing eternity wise. Perhaps repent and at least act saved.

Like I stated, I'm done dialoging with you. Twice you've laid false charges on me. With me, it's two strikes and you're out.

Go ahead, get your last word in.

 

[Synergy]

Again, we don't believe in "being Twice Saved".
That's YOUR worthless straw-man.
And you will have to answer to God for repeatedly misrepresenting us.

A Calvinist offered the following list as to how Calvinists are saved. I numbered the steps:
STEP 1: God regenerates us.
STEP 2: Then we believe.
STEP 3: THEN God saves us.

Titus 3:5 says you're saved through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit. So you're saved at the Calvinist STEP 1.
And then Calvinists say they're saved at STEP 3.
Add up the number of saves and the Calvinists are the Twice Saved group.

But faith is the MEANS by which God draws the elect to Christ.

How about verses like Eph 1:13 that says that in believing in Christ you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise? Isn't it clear that belief in Christ is before being sealed with the Holy Spirit? Or how about Gal 3:14 where you received the promised Holy Spirit by faith? There are many other verses.

 

[Reformedguy]

A Calvinist offered the following list as to how Calvinists are saved. I numbered the steps:
STEP 1: God regenerates us.
STEP 2: Then we believe.
STEP 3: THEN God saves us.

Titus 3:5 says you're saved through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit. So you're saved at the Calvinist STEP 1.
And then Calvinists say they're saved at STEP 3.
Add up the number of saves and the Calvinists are the Twice Saved group.

How about verses like Eph 1:13 that says that in believing in Christ you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise? Isn't it clear that belief in Christ is before being sealed with the Holy Spirit? Or how about Gal 3:14 where you received the promised Holy Spirit by faith? There are many other verses.

So what. When you were granted belief you were sealed. So what

By faith, not because of faith. Faith us the mechanism whereby you are sealed. So what.

Good example of proof texting gone horribly wrong.

 

[Synergy]

So what. When you were granted belief you were sealed. So what

Where do you see "granted belief"?
I see "In whom also believing, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise," in Eph 1:13.
What Bible version are you using?

By faith, not because of faith. Faith us the mechanism whereby you are sealed. So what.

Yes, by faith.
Last time I checked I still can't seal myself, by myself.
This is a typical Calvinist strawman that keeps going up in a blaze of fire.

I see you made no counterargument to the fact that Calvinists can be called the Twice Saved group.

 

[Reformedguy]

Where do you see "granted belief"?
I see "In whom also believing, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise," in Eph 1:13.
What Bible version are you using?

Yes, by faith.
Last time I checked I still can't seal myself, by myself.
This is a typical Calvinist strawman that keeps going up in a blaze of fire.

I see you made no counterargument to the fact that Calvinists can be called the Twice Saved group.

I did not say it said that in Titus 3:5.
It does say it however in Phlippians 1:29



By faith, not because of. No strawman there hence you refuse to address the point.

Why would I? LOL Your claim is silly and do far unsupported. There alot of dumb arguments against Calvinisn and this one ranks right up there. Congrats

 

[Theo1689]

A Calvinist offered the following list as to how Calvinists are saved. I numbered the steps:
STEP 1: God regenerates us.
STEP 2: Then we believe.
STEP 3: THEN God saves us.

That's ONE regeneration.
And ONE salvation.

To say anything different is MISREPRESENTATION and DISHONESTY.

Titus 3:5 says you're saved through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit. So you're saved at the Calvinist STEP 1.
And then Calvinists say they're saved at STEP 3.
Add up the number of saves and the Calvinists are the Twice Saved group.

No Calvinist has ever said that, nor do any believe that.
Yet YOU continue to proclaim it.

Therefore, we can only conclude that while NO Calvinist believes in "Twice Saved", YOU believe in "Twice Saved", since YOU are the one who keeps repeating it.

How about verses like Eph 1:13 that says that in believing in Christ you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise? Isn't it clear that belief in Christ is before being sealed with the Holy Spirit?

Of course.
We've never stated differently.
You need to learn to pay attention.

Btw, I don't know if you realize this or not, but all the while you do this, all you're doing is destroying your credibility to others.

Or how about Gal 3:14 where you received the promised Holy Spirit by faith? There are many other verses.

Yes, and all of them are consistent with Calvinism.

 

[Alkaline_9.5]

Perhaps repent and at least act saved.

As a man thinketh, so he is. We can change the course of our lives.

 

[preacher4truth]

As a man thinketh, so he is. We can change the course of our lives.

Um, that's not what that text means.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Um, that's not what that text means.

Hey, and Ethiopians can change their skin and leopards their spots, too! ?

 

[preacher4truth]

Hey, and Ethiopians can change their skin and leopards their spots, too! ?

That interpretation is through a lens of eastern mysticism and new age thinking.

I'm thinking in my heart I'm a Super Bowl winning QB heading to my 12th Super Bowl victory!

Oh crap, I'm just a dude with a Bible and tablet. Didn't work. Shucks.

 

[Reformedguy]

Where do you see "granted belief"?
I see "In whom also believing, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise," in Eph 1:13.
What Bible version are you using?

Yes, by faith.
Last time I checked I still can't seal myself, by myself.
This is a typical Calvinist strawman that keeps going up in a blaze of fire.

I see you made no counterargument to the fact that Calvinists can be called the Twice Saved group.

I did not say it said it there. I simply said belief is granted. Ice try

By fa

Hey, and Ethiopians can change their skin and leopards their spots, too! ?

And goats become sheep. Seen it the other day