Titus 3:5 exposes the anomalous dilemma of Calvinism.

S

Synergy

Well-known member
Howie said:
You've proven only that you are an expert eisegete. There are two types of folks in view in the passage below:

1. The regenerate who walk according to the Spirit, and

2. The unregenerate whose mind is set on the flesh.

The unregenerate are hostile to God, and WANT NOTHING TO DO WITH HIM.

That kills your soteriology -- Deal with it and repent.
Click to expand...
The word "therefore" in Rom 8:1 shows that Rom 8 is connected to Rom 7 in thought. You need to understand Rom 7 before diving into Rom 8.

Rom 7:22-25 clearly shows that Paul is talking about his internal struggle between the spiritual "inward man" and the "flesh". The contrast is not between a regenerative person and another unregenerative person. The contrast is an internal one within all believers: between the spiritual "inward man" and the "flesh". That's why Paul has no problem including himself in Rom 8:6-8. Therefore, it is folly to use Rom 8:6-8 solely for "unregenerates" because Paul includes all believers in Rom 8:6-8.

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the Law of God according to the inward man;
Rom 7:23 but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin being in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then with the mind I myself serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
Howie said:
Rom 8:3-8 ... For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are in accord with the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are in accord with the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Click to expand...
Thank you for forwarding these passages. It's the same believers internal struggle theme here also. These verses are perfectly aligned with the internal struggle that all believers possess between the spiritual "inward man" and the "flesh".
 
H

Howie

Well-known member
Synergy said:
The word "therefore" in Rom 8:1 shows that Rom 8 is connected to Rom 7 in thought. You need to understand Rom 7 before diving into Rom 8.

Rom 7:22-25 clearly shows that Paul is talking about his internal struggle between the spiritual "inward man" and the "flesh". The contrast is not between a regenerative person and another unregenerative person. The contrast is an internal one within all believers: between the spiritual "inward man" and the "flesh". That's why Paul has no problem including himself in Rom 8:6-8. Therefore, it is folly to use Rom 8:6-8 solely for "unregenerates" because Paul includes all believers in Rom 8:6-8.

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the Law of God according to the inward man;
Rom 7:23 but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin being in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then with the mind I myself serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Thank you for forwarding these passages. It's the same believers internal struggle theme here also. These verses are perfectly aligned with the internal struggle that all believers possess between the spiritual "inward man" and the "flesh".
Click to expand...
You're out of context.

You're soteriology is false -- REPENT.
 
ReverendRV

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Ladodgers6 said:
Yeah, I remember, to them it's like a buffet, they only pick and choose what they want.
Click to expand...
I bet you are a Poster that Christian would definitely like to engage in a Dialectic Debate...

See his Thread on it...

He's asking for a real Debate here...
 
Last edited:
S

Synergy

Well-known member
Ladodgers6 said:
Yeah, I remember, to them it's like a buffet,
Click to expand...
I already did in Post 295. Here it is again:

For 1 Cor 2:14, Paul is talking directly to believers in Corinth who are predominately regenerate and indwelt saints. That Church was well known for its congregation that was still “carnal” (1 Cor 3:3) and was still “babes in Christ” (1 Cor 3:1). It's the Corinthian believers who Paul is addressing. Paul was admonishing all church members to embrace that which the Holy Spirit teaches and not to be a “natural man” who knows nothing of the things of the Spirit. Paul is not talking exclusively about unregenerates in 1 Cor 2:14. He is applying that verse to the entire congregation. Paul's message is that the entire congregation needs to stop being carnal and to grow up spiritually. That goes for every one of them, not just for the unregenerates. So 1 Cor 2:14 can't be used to support Calvinist TD theories.
Ladodgers6 said:
they only pick and choose what they want.
Click to expand...
These are the questions that I had asked for answers from you earlier. We wouldn't want to think that you "only pick and choose what [you] want" now would we?
  1. Please address Titus 3:7 and tell me how "being justified" (by faith and works) before regeneration aligns with your regeneration before belief position?
  2. Please forward at least one Bible passage that explicitly shows that regeneration occurs before faith.
  3. How does Paul's association of "everlasting life" with good works in Rom 2:7 align with your views about good works?
  4. How does James' direct association of justification with a combination of good works and faith in James 2:24 align with your views?
 
L

Ladodgers6

Guest
Synergy said:
I already did in Post 295. Here it is again:

For 1 Cor 2:14, Paul is talking directly to believers in Corinth who are predominately regenerate and indwelt saints.
Click to expand...
Okay how does this change what Paul said, that the natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit.

Synergy said:
That Church was well known for its congregation that was still “carnal” (1 Cor 3:3) and was still “babes in Christ” (1 Cor 3:1). It's the Corinthian believers who Paul is addressing. Paul was admonishing all church members to embrace that which the Holy Spirit teaches and not to be a “natural man” who knows nothing of the things of the Spirit. Paul is not talking exclusively about unregenerates in 1 Cor 2:14. He is applying that verse to the entire congregation. Paul's message is that the entire congregation needs to stop being carnal and to grow up spiritually. That goes for every one of them, not just for the unregenerates. So 1 Cor 2:14 can't be used to support Calvinist TD theories.
Click to expand...
This does not explain away the carnal man without the Spirit, cannot understand. TD BTW is also held by Classical Arminianism, which I was once was.
Synergy said:
These are the questions that I had asked for answers from you earlier. We wouldn't want to think that you "only pick and choose what [you] want" now would we?
  1. Please address Titus 3:7 and tell me how "being justified" (by faith and works) before regeneration aligns with your regeneration before belief position?
Click to expand...
I answered this already, if you're not reading my posts, that's on you.
Synergy said:
  1. Please forward at least one Bible passage that explicitly shows that regeneration occurs before faith.
Click to expand...
Really? 1 Cor. 2:14
Synergy said:
  1. How does Paul's association of "everlasting life" with good works in Rom 2:7 align with your views about good works?
Click to expand...
So that I get this right. You are suggesting here, that sinners are saved by their good works? Wasn't Titus 3:5 clear enough?
Synergy said:
  1. How does James' direct association of justification with a combination of good works and faith in James 2:24 align with your views?
Click to expand...
Excellent question, our good works as believers flow from our justification through Faith Alone in the person and finished works of Christ!
 
H

Howie

Well-known member
Synergy said:
^^^^ Typical Calvinist Pontifications with no Biblical nor rational support whatsoever ^^^^
Click to expand...
When you gonna wake up, slick?

See below ... AGAIN
Howie said:
You've proven only that you are an expert eisegete. There are two types of folks in view in the passage below:

1. The regenerate who walk according to the Spirit, and

2. The unregenerate whose mind is set on the flesh.

The unregenerate are hostile to God, and WANT NOTHING TO DO WITH HIM.

That kills your soteriology -- Deal with it and repent.

Rom 8:3-8 ... For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are in accord with the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are in accord with the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Click to expand...
 
S

Synergy

Well-known member
Ladodgers6 said:
Okay how does this change what Paul said, that the natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit.
This does not explain away the carnal man without the Spirit, cannot understand. TD BTW is also held by Classical Arminianism, which I was once was.
Click to expand...
I personally don't care what Arminius or Calvin said or wrote. Nobody is saved by believing in Arminius nor by believing in Calvin.
The fact remains that the verse is directed to all people including regenerates and is therefore folly for Calvinists to point to it to support their TD theory.
Ladodgers6 said:
I answered this already, if you're not reading my posts, that's on you.
Click to expand...
This is the 3rd time I'm asking about Titus 3:7. Only Howie responded with a "Rom 8:6-8" response that proved nothing on her part.
Ladodgers6 said:
Really? 1 Cor. 2:14
Click to expand...
Where is "regeneration" mentioned in that verse? Where is "faith" or "belief" mentioned in that verse. Try not to let your Calvinist presuppositions obscure what is actually written in 1 Cor 2:14. Surely, a Calvinist theory that vital would be based on many clear passages in the Bible. Wouldn't you think? All I'm asking for is at least one clear passage that explicitly shows that regeneration is before faith. For our conversation to proceed further based on Calvinist assumptions is pure folly.
Ladodgers6 said:
So that I get this right. You are suggesting here, that sinners are saved by their good works?
Click to expand...
Nobody around here is a Sola Works advocate but we do believe Paul when he associates good works with everlasting life in Rom 2:7. Do you?
Ladodgers6 said:
Wasn't Titus 3:5 clear enough?
Click to expand...
Now I know you did not address Titus 3:7. Here are my comments and question again:

Sorry to rain on your parade but did you notice the phrase "being justified by his grace" in Titus 3:7? How is one justified? By faith and good works, of course according to James 2:24. Faith is part of God's Grace (Eph 2:8) and so is Preordained Good Works part of God's Grace (Eph 2:10). Everything good is given to us by God's Grace.
Ladodgers6 said:
Excellent question, our good works as believers flow from our justification through Faith Alone in the person and finished works of Christ!
Click to expand...
I see you took full liberty to change the verse from "justified by works, and not by faith only" to "justification through Faith Alone". Is that a common practice amongst Calvinists to so easily change what's written in the Bible?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top