Titus 3:5 exposes the anomalous dilemma of Calvinism.

And the shame is, the ignoring results in a continuation of the Fight...

In the years I've been here, have I had a thousand responses skipped? If they weren't skipped, the fight would be over; and CARM would go out of business...
You making them re-think their position, VICTORY!
 
That's not too bad...

You have the Holy Spirit in your paradigm twice, it's like what I say. We are Washed by the Holy Spirit, he have Faith in Christ; and our spirit is Renewed by the Holy Spirit. What you have said, will work in the Temporal Order...
In order for us to continue with your idea, I need to have at least one Bible passage explicitly showing that the washing of regeneration occurs before faith. If you can furnish that then we can move on.
Now; it depends on what you say the Spirit is necessary for at the beginning, not at the end...
Read John 16:7-15. At the beginning, the Holy Spirit is needed to convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment.
 
Thanks for sharing with me. If the sinner's heart and mind are illuminated by the Holy Spirit, how is this not regeneration prior to believing?
Prior to believing, it is the Word of God that is effectual in those who believe in Christ (1 Th 2:13). Also prior to believing, the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 16:7-15). Since Salvific belief is only effectual in those who believe then there is no unconditional election to salvation here whatsoever.
Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

There's so much to unpack here, this is one of my favorite passages. He saved us not by any works DONE by us, but on the contrary it's solely on God's own Mercy Alone! This is what we Calvinists called Unconditional not conditional. If it's conditional by the works we do, then it's no longer Grace, but by our works. But Titus stomps that idea. Understanding sin, the curse of sin, which all sinners are under how far we have fallen into sin and darkness; deaf, blind, and dumb. Only God's Mercy and Grace can save us from this plight. God provides everything we need in his Son to redeem his people from their sins. God is the faithful one in keeping his word, oath, promise, covenant.
"You will be my people, and I will be your God"
Sorry to rain on your parade but did you notice the phrase "being justified by his grace" in Titus 3:7? How is one justified? By faith and good works, of course according to James 2:24. Faith is part of God's Grace (Eph 2:8) and so is Preordained Good Works part of God's Grace (Eph 2:10). Everything good is given to us by God's Grace.
See Synergy, if the Holy Spirit has renewed the mind to understand, and removed the heart of stone, and us a heart of flesh to believe. This is called regeneration, which precedes faith. Without this taking place prior to Faith nobody would be saved.
You need to supply me with at least one Bible passage explicitly showing that regeneration occurs before faith. If you can furnish that then we can move on.
I beg to differ. The mind is regenerated as is the heart prior to believing. The sinner does not possess spiritual capacities prior to being regenerated to understand, will or even desire God. Without the Holy Spirit applying these heavenly blessings no one would be saved, once again.
Prior to believing, it is the Word of God that is effectual in those who believe in Christ (1 Th 2:13). More details can be had in Rom 10:8-18.
I would really like your detail explanation of what happens to a sinner to according to you receive conviction and such, understanding I hope as well is given, but if these things are given to the sinner prior to believing, why would anyone reject it? If they truly understand the Holy Spirit?
Before we move further on in our conversations, we need to tidy up some things before they accumulate into a big pile. Please address James 2:24 and how justification by faith and good works aligns with your beliefs. Also, please address Titus 3:7 and how "being justified" (by faith and works) before regeneration aligns with your regeneration before belief position. If we can tidy that up then I would be more than happy to continue
Amen everything is of Grace Alone, including the gift of Faith.
Amen, everything good comes from God's Grace, including our minds, hearts, conscience, volition, etc....
 
Prior to believing, it is the Word of God that is effectual in those who believe in Christ (1 Th 2:13). Also prior to believing, the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 16:7-15). Since Salvific belief is only effectual in those who believe then there is no unconditional election to salvation here whatsoever.

Sorry to rain on your parade but did you notice the phrase "being justified by his grace" in Titus 3:7? How is one justified? By faith and good works, of course according to James 2:24. Faith is part of God's Grace (Eph 2:8) and so is Preordained Good Works part of God's Grace (Eph 2:10). Everything good is given to us by God's Grace.

You need to supply me with at least one Bible passage explicitly showing that regeneration occurs before faith. If you can furnish that then we can move on.

Prior to believing, it is the Word of God that is effectual in those who believe in Christ (1 Th 2:13). More details can be had in Rom 10:8-18.

Before we move further on in our conversations, we need to tidy up some things before they accumulate into a big pile. Please address James 2:24 and how justification by faith and good works aligns with your beliefs. Also, please address Titus 3:7 and how "being justified" (by faith and works) before regeneration aligns with your regeneration before belief position. If we can tidy that up then I would be more than happy to continue

Amen, everything good comes from God's Grace, including our minds, hearts, conscience, volition, etc....
Rom 8:6-8
 
Rom 8:6-8
I have already proven to you that Paul included himself in Rom 8:6 "For to be carnally minded is death" by saying "I am carnal" in Rom 7:14. So that verse cannot be used exclusively for the "unregenerated" because Paul includes himself in that verse. There is no way around that fact.
 
I have already proven to you that Paul included himself in Rom 8:6 "For to be carnally minded is death" by saying "I am carnal" in Rom 7:14. So that verse cannot be used exclusively for the "unregenerated" because Paul includes himself in that verse. There is no way around that fact.

Forced carnally minded is not carnally minded.

Sure we can go to never, never to be dream world.

But that is not real.
 
I have already proven to you that Paul included himself in Rom 8:6 "For to be carnally minded is death" by saying "I am carnal" in Rom 7:14. So that verse cannot be used exclusively for the "unregenerated" because Paul includes himself in that verse. There is no way around that fact.
1 Cor 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Please address this passage. And I'll ask again why would any sinner convicted of their sin and the consequences of it, who truly understand what the Holy Spirit is bearing witness to, reject it? I once thought as you do, and there's no assurance, no hope, no salvation from sin. Why? Because your view of Grace is not effectual, it's powerless, God's Promise fails, and falls short. I am thankful to God who is rich in Mercy and saves wretched sinners like me.

There's nothing good in man (sinners) that deserve Grace. Because all sinners are under the curse of the Law. Which means sinners will not be justified through the Law before God by anything they do. What's truly amazing Synergy is that the Gospel is an announcement of what God has already accomplished in his for his people. God's Plan of Redemption is God's Word that He will save his people from their sins. Because we could not do it ourselves. If you conflate works with Grace you have another Gospel, and even Arminius knew this, and taught this. Arminius even taught Total Depravity.​
 
I have already proven to you that Paul included himself in Rom 8:6 "For to be carnally minded is death" by saying "I am carnal" in Rom 7:14. So that verse cannot be used exclusively for the "unregenerated" because Paul includes himself in that verse. There is no way around that fact.

You've proven only that you are an expert eisegete. There are two types of folks in view in the passage below:

1. The regenerate who walk according to the Spirit, and

2. The unregenerate whose mind is set on the flesh.

The unregenerate are hostile to God, and WANT NOTHING TO DO WITH HIM.

That kills your soteriology -- Deal with it and repent.

Rom 8:3-8 ... For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are in accord with the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are in accord with the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
 
1 Cor 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Please address this passage. And I'll ask again why would any sinner convicted of their sin and the consequences of it, who truly understand what the Holy Spirit is bearing witness to, reject it? I once thought as you do, and there's no assurance, no hope, no salvation from sin. Why? Because your view of Grace is not effectual, it's powerless, God's Promise fails, and falls short. I am thankful to God who is rich in Mercy and saves wretched sinners like me.
.
There's nothing good in man (sinners) that deserve Grace. Because all sinners are under the curse of the Law. Which means sinners will not be justified through the Law before God by anything they do. What's truly amazing Synergy is that the Gospel is an announcement of what God has already accomplished in his for his people. God's Plan of Redemption is God's Word that He will save his people from their sins. Because we could not do it ourselves. If you conflate works with Grace you have another Gospel, and even Arminius knew this, and taught this. Arminius even taught Total Depravity.​
He will never address that passage.
 
1 Cor 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Please address this passage.​
For 1 Cor 2:14, Paul is talking directly to believers in Corinth who are predominately regenerate and indwelt saints. That Church was well known for its congregation that was still “carnal” (1 Cor 3:3) and was still “babes in Christ” (1 Cor 3:1). It's the Corinthian believers who Paul is addressing. Paul was admonishing all church members to embrace that which the Holy Spirit teaches and not to be a “natural man” who knows nothing of the things of the Spirit. Paul is not talking exclusively about unregenerates in 1 Cor 2:14. He is applying that verse to the entire congregation. Paul's message is that the entire congregation needs to stop being carnal and to grow up spiritually. That goes for every one of them, not just for the unregenerates. So 1 Cor 2:14 can't be used to support Calvinist TD theories.
And I'll ask again why would any sinner convicted of their sin and the consequences of it, who truly understand what the Holy Spirit is bearing witness to, reject it? I once thought as you do, and there's no assurance, no hope, no salvation from sin. Why? Because your view of Grace is not effectual, it's powerless, God's Promise fails, and falls short. I am thankful to God who is rich in Mercy and saves wretched sinners like me.​
My view is Paul's view. Prior to believing, it is the Word of God that is effectual in those who believe in Christ (1 Th 2:13). Also prior to believing, the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 16:7-15). Salvific belief is only effectual in those who believe.
There's nothing good in man (sinners) that deserve Grace. Because all sinners are under the curse of the Law. Which means sinners will not be justified through the Law before God by anything they do. What's truly amazing Synergy is that the Gospel is an announcement of what God has already accomplished in his for his people. God's Plan of Redemption is God's Word that He will save his people from their sins. Because we could not do it ourselves. If you conflate works with Grace you have another Gospel, and even Arminius knew this, and taught this. Arminius even taught Total Depravity.​
Everything that comes from God is good. God has preordained good works for us (Eph 2:10). Paul goes further in Rom 2:7 and associates "everlasting life" with good works. James does something similar in directly associating justification with a combination of good works and faith in James 2:24. In light of what Paul and James said, nobody can just dismiss good works.

These are the questions that I would appreciate answers for:
  1. Please address Titus 3:7 and tell me how "being justified" (by faith and works) before regeneration aligns with your regeneration before belief position?
  2. Please forward at least one Bible passage that explicitly shows that regeneration occurs before faith.
  3. How does Paul's association of "everlasting life" with good works in Rom 2:7 align with your views about good works?
  4. How does James' direct association of justification with a combination of good works and faith in James 2:24 align with your views?
 
He will never address that passage.
I already have the chosen 12 disciples you know who the elect sheep ? . They did not understand the gospel and many other spiritual things Jesus tried to teach them . That makes them carnal , not spiritual according to your verse in 1 Cor 2.

next
 
I already have the chosen 12 disciples you know who the elect sheep ? . They did not understand the gospel and many other spiritual things Jesus tried to teach them . That makes them carnal , not spiritual according to your verse in 1 Cor 2.

next
LOL Still avoiding the text I see. I Corinthians 2:10-14
 
LOL Still avoiding the text I see. I Corinthians 2:10-14
new thread exposes your false view :)

 
new thread exposes your false view :)

Sorry. It does no such thing. Try dealing with the actual text prolific author
 
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