To do God's will not God's will?

Traditional Trinity doctrine: One God, one Will, not three.
My response was not to you, and was concerning the "US" in Genesis 1. I said the "US" is not God talking to Himself, but rather the Divine counsel or elohim.

But yes, God has 1 will. So if that is anti trinitarian, so be it.
 
My will, by choosing to agree with my father's request, does not cease to make my will independent of my father. It simply means that I've chosen to make my own will agree with his request.

In like manner, Jesus did the same.

Just to clarify your statement...

Are you saying the Son's will was NOT to die for your sins, that was only the will of the Father. But since Jesus would rather obey his Father than do his own will, he went ahead and died for your sins?
 

herman

Member
The divine counsel, also seen in Job.
So tell me, have you been reading Michael Heiser on this divine council business? The following is a "critique" of Heiser. https://cerebralfaith.net/what-is-the-divine-council-and-is-it-biblical/ Personally, I'm not convinced with what he says. God is not accountable nor does He have to explain why He does things, especially to this divine council. Now, I'm very familiar with Heiser's work and he wrote a great article as to the identity of the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament.

In Him,
herman
 
So tell me, have you been reading Michael Heiser on this divine council business? The following is a "critique" of Heiser. https://cerebralfaith.net/what-is-the-divine-council-and-is-it-biblical/ Personally, I'm not convinced with what he says. God is not accountable nor does He have to explain why He does things, especially to this divine council. Now, I'm very familiar with Heiser's work and he wrote a great article as to the identity of the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament.

In Him,
herman
I haven't. I am not convinced one way or the other, but the OT is very clear that God is 1. It doesn't make any sense for God to talk to Himself. It's possible yes, but I believe Trinitarians are reading that into the text.

Regarding the Angel of the Lord, depending on the context it could be the pre incarnate Son, or the Word of the Lord, or just a messenger/angel.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Just to clarify your statement...

Are you saying the Son's will was NOT to die for your sins, that was only the will of the Father. But since Jesus would rather obey his Father than do his own will, he went ahead and died for your sins?
From what I read in John 10, Jesus chooses to give his own life. No one takes it from him.

So, in choosing to do what his Father asked, he's agreeing that it's what he wants to do, and is glad to do it.

He's still the one who suffered. He still told Peter he could've easily called on 12 legions of Angels to overturn the edict.
He recognized that he had a choice in the matter, and still chose to do it.
 

herman

Member
So God has 3 wills or one?
God has three wills because the one God of the Bible chose to reveal Himself as three distinct persons. For example, Mark 1:11, "and a voice came out of the heavens, "Thou art My beloved Son, in Thee I am well-pleased." So you have God the Father (who has one will) referencing His only begotten Son who also has one will. Then you have the Holy Spirit saying the following at Acts 13:2.

"And while they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit SAID, separate for Me (for the Holy Spirit) Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." The Holy Spirit has personality and His own will. If you ask me how the Holy Spirit gave this message I don't know and the text does not indicate how. The point is the fact that the Holy Spirit is a person distinct from the Father and the Son with His own will. Also read Acts 5:4 for more information about the identity of the Holy Spirit.

The BIG problem you have is you do not understand that the God of the Bible is one being/one God and yet (as I said) He chose to manifest Himself as three distinct persons. So, you give me any verse in the whole Bible and I will tell you who is speaking.

In Him,
herman
 

herman

Member
I haven't. I am not convinced one way or the other, but the OT is very clear that God is 1. It doesn't make any sense for God to talk to Himself. It's possible yes, but I believe Trinitarians are reading that into the text.

Regarding the Angel of the Lord, depending on the context it could be the pre incarnate Son, or the Word of the Lord, or just a messenger/angel.
Of course God is one, that's a given. When I say God is talking to Himself I'm referring to the other two persons of the Trinity as the "US." And no, I am convinced that the writers of the Old Testament had no idea of a Trinity of persons who share the same exact nature. They were looking forward to the Messiah (who btw is identified as God) in the OT and we look back to the fulfilled prophecies of the coming Messiah, Jesus Christ. And your first answer is correct, "the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ which can easily be proven.

In Him,
herman
 
God has three wills because the one God of the Bible chose to reveal Himself as three distinct persons. For example, Mark 1:11, "and a voice came out of the heavens, "Thou art My beloved Son, in Thee I am well-pleased." So you have God the Father (who has one will) referencing His only begotten Son who also has one will. Then you have the Holy Spirit saying the following at Acts 13:2.

"And while they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit SAID, separate for Me (for the Holy Spirit) Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." The Holy Spirit has personality and His own will. If you ask me how the Holy Spirit gave this message I don't know and the text does not indicate how. The point is the fact that the Holy Spirit is a person distinct from the Father and the Son with His own will. Also read Acts 5:4 for more information about the identity of the Holy Spirit.

The BIG problem you have is you do not understand that the God of the Bible is one being/one God and yet (as I said) He chose to manifest Himself as three distinct persons. So, you give me any verse in the whole Bible and I will tell you who is speaking.

In Him,
herman
Who is speaking in Isaiah 44:24?

Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
who formed you from the womb:
“I am the Lord, who made all things,
who alone stretched out the heavens,
who spread out the earth by myself,
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of Him who sent me.
John 6:38

In Trinitarianism, who specifically said this? God the Son of course. In Trinity land, God the Son according to his divine nature came down from heaven to planet earth and into the womb of a Jewish virgin. In the mind of Trinitarians, God the Son along with his divine nature came down from heaven. No man came down from heaven; only God the Son came down from heaven.

This is one of many, many verses which demonstrate their utter blindness. They have God the Son saying that He, God the Son, came down from heaven not to do his will but only to do the will of God the Father. God came down from heaven not to do God's will but to do God's will.

Trinity Land: To do God's will not God's will.

But the doctrine of the Trinity insists the one God only has one mind, one will. Yet they interpret John 6:38 to mean God the Son came down from heaven not to do his (God's) will but to do God's will.

So God sent God from heaven to earth not to do God's will but to do God's will.

It would be laughable if not so shamefully pitiful.
Your Absolutely SILLY analysis of the situation is totally laughable.

OF course IF Jesus was actually God Almighty hiding in a "man suit" pretending to be human, then obviously when Paul says Jesus was TEMPTED AS WE ARE, would be a total LIE. as would Jesus temptation in the wilderness.

The explanation, of course is that Jesus - in the days of His FLESH was limited to being 100% HUMAN (with a 100% human nature just like WE have) in his conscious walk, in spite of the fullness of the God-Head dwelling in Him. Jesus had to accept WHO HE WAS by Faith in God's WORD TO HIM - just as WE have to accept our PERFECTION before God (since Born again folks are "in Christ").

The MIRACLE of Jesus is that even when He WAS NOT accompanied by the Holy Spirit after John's baptism, He remained sinless, in order to be the perfect SIN OFFERING that cleanses us from sin (not just "forgives")
 

herman

Member
Who is speaking in Isaiah 44:24?

Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
who formed you from the womb:
“I am the Lord, who made all things,
who alone stretched out the heavens,
who spread out the earth by myself,
God! Do you see God the Father mentioned? Is God the Son or God the Holy Spirit named? Let me put it another way. Where not distinction is made, it is obviously unnecessary to make a distinction. The persons of the Trinity are persons in relation to each other, any one of the persons in relation to us is simply God. Since there is only one God, and if God says to us His glory He will not give to another, that is because there is only ONE God.

In Him,
herman
 
Of course God is one, that's a given. When I say God is talking to Himself I'm referring to the other two persons of the Trinity as the "US." And no, I am convinced that the writers of the Old Testament had no idea of a Trinity of persons who share the same exact nature. They were looking forward to the Messiah (who btw is identified as God) in the OT and we look back to the fulfilled prophecies of the coming Messiah, Jesus Christ. And your first answer is correct, "the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ which can easily be proven.

That is another big difference between the Trinitarian view and my view...


Trinitarians believe the Old Testament prophets came up with the content...

So they say the Old Testament prophets "had no idea of a Trinity" which is why they didn't write about it.


Whereas I believe God is author of the Bible...

2 Timothy 3:16... All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


And God most certainly knows everything there is to know about his nature.

So if the Old Testament does not mention the Trinity, it would either be because God didn't know about a "Trinity", or because he chose not to reveal it.

It would NOT be because the human writers "had no idea".

There is plenty in the Old Testament that the prophet did not understand but he wrote it anyway because he was just the instrument used to record God's words.
 
The persons of the Trinity are persons in relation to each other, any one of the persons in relation to us is simply God.

But I don't think that is what most Trinitarians believe.

Just to clarify...

Did God die for your* sins?

Or was it just one of the three Persons of the Trinity who died for you sins?

*Note: I used "your" to show "relation to you".
 
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